Why CDs May Actually Sound Better Than Vinyl

[microstrip]

Where did you get that idea from? 13 bits allows only for a nominal dynamic range of 78 dB which nobody ever claimed to be enough, as far as I know. On the other hand, while vinyl/tape have only a nominal dynamics range of ca. 70 dB I have heard some explosive dynamics from top level analog that put most digital to shame. But that's a different matter.

Al M. ,

Surely I do not support such idea! But I have read it more than once, either triggered by the performance of the BBC radio 13 bit digital links or just doing rough inadequate comparisons with the dynamic range of reel tape domestic recorders.

 

[microstrip]

The theory doesn't say that at all. The dynamic range of our hearing system is about 116 db SPL. 13 dB only gives you 78 db SPL which way short of that.

The 13 bit number comes from people who incorrectly assume just because they measure 40 to 45 db SPL noise in our everyday rooms and where content is recorded, that you really need 116-45 = 71 db.

Their logic makes lay sense but violates psychoacoustics. Our hearing system is highly non-linear and has nothing remotely approaching flat response to allow such simple math. I address that in this article I wrote and show that we do need around 20 bits to have the format be completely transparent to our ear under all conditions: http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dynamic-range-how-quiet-is-quiet.14/

Of course no analog system remotely comes close to these numbers. My Reel to Reel deck has an 80 db signal to noise ratio or some such thing. And of course the noise level is plainly audible there.

You are correct - I should have written my sentence it in full, not with the ending ... I was joking on others simplistic assumptions!

 

[Al M.]

The theory doesn't say that at all. The dynamic range of our hearing system is about 116 db SPL. 13 dB only gives you 78 db SPL which way short of that.

The 13 bit number comes from people who incorrectly assume just because they measure 40 to 45 db SPL noise in our everyday rooms and where content is recorded, that you really need 116-45 = 71 db.

Their logic makes lay sense but violates psychoacoustics. Our hearing system is highly non-linear and has nothing remotely approaching flat response to allow such simple math. I address that in this article I wrote and show that we do need around 20 bits to have the format be completely transparent to our ear under all conditions: http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dynamic-range-how-quiet-is-quiet.14/

Of course no analog system remotely comes close to these numbers. My Reel to Reel deck has an 80 db signal to noise ratio or some such thing. And of course the noise level is plainly audible there.

I see our posts crossed.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Their logic makes lay sense but violates psychoacoustics. Our hearing system is highly non-linear and has nothing remotely approaching flat response to allow such simple math. I address that in this article I wrote and show that we do need around 20 bits to have the format be completely transparent to our ear under all conditions: http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dynamic-range-how-quiet-is-quiet.14/
(...)

Since you have access to the AES library could you comment on this old AES paper? http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=11981 I have never read it, but I have found many people referencing it in the past.


Dynamic Range Requirement for Subjective Noise Free Reproduction of Music

A dynamic range of 118 dB is determined necessary for subjective noise-free reproduction of music in a dithered digital audio recorder. Maximum peak sound levels in music are compared to the minimum discernible level of white noise in a quiet listening situation. Microphone noise limitations, monitoring loudspeaker capabilities, and performance environment noise levels are also considered.

Author: Fielder, Louis D.
Affiliation: Ampex Corporation, Redwood City, CA

 

[amirm]

Since you have access to the AES library could you comment on this old AES paper? http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=11981 I have never read it, but I have found many people referencing it in the past.


Dynamic Range Requirement for Subjective Noise Free Reproduction of Music

A dynamic range of 118 dB is determined necessary for subjective noise-free reproduction of music in a dithered digital audio recorder. Maximum peak sound levels in music are compared to the minimum discernible level of white noise in a quiet listening situation. Microphone noise limitations, monitoring loudspeaker capabilities, and performance environment noise levels are also considered.

Author: Fielder, Louis D.
Affiliation: Ampex Corporation, Redwood City, CA

A sister paper by Fielder is actually a reference and basis of my article I post earlier . http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dynamic-range-how-quiet-is-quiet.14/
"“Dynamic-Range Issues in the Modern Digital Audio Environment, ”Fielder, Louis D., JAES Volume 43 Issue 5 pp. 322-339; May 1995"

They both cover the same topic more or less.

In a nutshell, he analyzes the true dynamic range of orchestral music and what exists in playback rooms of listeners. Based on that he computes the 118 db requirement for transparency. My 116 db number comes from a different direction of what our hearing system is capable of. I often round this up to 120 db. See http://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...erception-of-sound-loudness-dynamic-range.24/

 

[PeterA]

NEWSFLASH: In today's joint news conference between President Obama and British PM Cameron, the President mentioned that the PM has a "turntable" in his private residence and that the two of them listened to Prince's "Purple Rain" LP to "warm up" before their morning meeting. How cool is that? Two of the most powerful people on the planet listening to vinyl together.

 

[rockitman]

NEWSFLASH: In today's joint news conference between President Obama and British PM Cameron, the President mentioned that the PM has a "turntable" in his private residence and that the two of them listened to Prince's "Purple Rain" LP to "warm up" before their morning meeting. How cool is that? Two of the most powerful people on the planet listening to vinyl together.

Sorry, not good enough to excuse Obama's performance over the past 7.5 years....

 

[amirm]

NEWSFLASH: In today's joint news conference between President Obama and British PM Cameron, the President mentioned that the PM has a "turntable" in his private residence and that the two of them listened to Prince's "Purple Rain" LP to "warm up" before their morning meeting. How cool is that? Two of the most powerful people on the planet listening to vinyl together.

No one said they were perfect....

 

[PeterA]

Sorry, not good enough to excuse Obama's performance over the past 7.5 years....

I'm sorry. I did not intend to infer any such thing. This is a political free zone. I'm not surprised that the British Prime Minister would have a turntable to listen to records. I'm surprised that Obama mentioned it in a live joint news conference today. There are all sorts of references to turntables in popular media today. That is very cool indeed.

 

[amirm]

NEWSFLASH: In today's joint news conference between President Obama and British PM Cameron, the President mentioned that the PM has a "turntable" in his private residence and that the two of them listened to Prince's "Purple Rain" LP to "warm up" before their morning meeting. How cool is that? Two of the most powerful people on the planet listening to vinyl together.

Looks like it was not the British PM that has the table but the US abmassador: http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/latest-obama-arrives-lunch-queen-elizabeth-ii-38593561

"Obama is speaking at a news conference after meeting with Prime Minister David Cameron. Obama says he listened to "Purple Rain" and "Delirious" at the U.S. ambassador's residence on Friday in tribute to Prince and "to get warmed up" before his meeting with Cameron."

I will try to find the measurements of his system....

 

[NorthStar]

Just curious: Who here owns Prince - Purple Rain's vinyl?

 

[amirm]

Hmmm, it does appear Amir has a coyness in answering my question & that link doesn't show me that he has much listening experience with vinyl, although I might be wrong?

It appears to me that you like to have a battle and that doesn't interest me. The topic here is the OP and the article within. It is not related to me personally.

 

[rockitman]

I'm sorry. I did not intend to infer any such thing. This is a political free zone. I'm not surprised that the British Prime Minister would have a turntable to listen to records. I'm surprised that Obama mentioned it in a live joint news conference today. There are all sorts of references to turntables in popular media today. That is very cool indeed.

No doubt..I can see Blair with a TT...not Obama.

 

[Joe Whip]

Just curious: Who here owns Prince - Purple Rain's vinyl?

View attachment 26618

I have a copy, never played. Got it in law school. A friend of mine used to play 1999 off of a portable tape player into a mic in the large class rooms before class. No one could ever figure out who it was. The class rooms were huge and packed with students.

 

[Al M.]

No doubt..I can see Blair with a TT...not Obama.

Ok, let's not make this political. I am not even on your side, so don't provoke, please. Thank you.

 

[GaryProtein]

Just curious: Who here owns Prince - Purple Rain's vinyl?

Not a single one of his recordings.

 

[NorthStar]

Unfortunately it's not quite like that, Bob - some distortion is good, Hendrix, etc; some we can easily filter out if the rest of the message comes through cleanly; but some is downright debilitating - poor digital has oodles of the latter, puts a really bad taste in the mouth, so to speak ... overall, less distortion is better, unless intended for a specific effect ...

Frank, when you first started buying music as a kid...you were buying vinyl records to play on your turntable?
And then...what was the progression (or regression) from there to later on?
____________

The most pleasurable emotional and physical and spiritual level that I experience(d) in life listening to music, came/come from spinning album records (vinyls) on a turntable.
...The entire love affair, because music listening love is more than just listening and searching for life's mysteries and secrets and truths and comparisons.
Analysis, ok, but analysis is not the provider of the love's affair, of the emotional connection, of the full ritual.

Vinyl people are, no doubt in my mind, on a higher connective level with the artist's music. It's just the way it is, invented way before the release of the digital music CD in 1982.
The CD is still relatively a baby, only 34-years old ? The first commercial compact disc was produced on 17 August 1982. It was a recording from 1979 of Claudio Arrau performing Chopin waltzes (Philips 400 025-2). Arrau was invited to the Langenhagen plant to press the start button.

Vinyl is a much older music fella: The LP record (long play), or 33 1?3 rpm microgroove vinyl record, is a gramophone record format introduced by Columbia Records in 1948.[7] It was adopted by the record industry as a standard format for the "album".

...And before that: http://www.vinyl-record.co.uk/Pages/VinylRecordHistory.htm

So vinyl is a much more experienced (longevity) fellow. We can go back in history when the famous people were listening to music on vinyl, and never ever experienced the digital age transformation...the compact disc. So our history is richer in values that we can all relate to...the vinyl record.
It may not mean much for some, but it does enormously in music history of mankind.

I've seen some graphs of the resurgence of analog vinyl listening from the last eight years; it is simply phenomenal that our roots are coming back where the heart is. We've all seen those graphs, so I won't post any: http://www.adweek.com/news/advertis...capitalizing-musics-most-analog-medium-170016
Forget all technical and distortion aspects in music history; look @ the entire love affair and the musical impact on humanity.

There is one true music solidification...and it's classical music. ...Peace (sublime comfort) and War (awe power). ...To me. :b

 

[spiritofmusic]

No disrespect gentlemen, but when my sarcastic comments twds Sarah Palin and the "Bridge To Nowhere" were deleted, then politics on all sides should be a no no here.
Tbh, it's great that all spheres of lp listening are made known, surely putting to bed the farcical thought that vinyl is JUST the preserve of geeks.
I'm very much stoked for the 512dsd demo at BMW/Munich - as a died in the wool vinylphile but w/a great wish for digital to emulate and exceed what lp's do so well, I'll be happy to report back here.

 

[NorthStar]

Not a single one of his recordings.

Gary, I am not surprised for one bit. Prince's music is an acquired taste. A music genre for a generation then...
Not everyone is daring to explore that genre, and it is perfectly fine.

Personally, I had that album (vinyl), but last I've heard it must have been quite a few years back, and don't ask me why, because music represents all phases of our life...some enriching ones and others when we were @ lost.
________

TEST: www.jillianann.com/
TEST #2: www.djjillianann.com

The two links above; one day I could access them, the next day no more.
Can anyone here tell me if they can access them, and why is that I could not anymore?
________

* EDIT: Many sites of Jillian Ann are no more accessible...but they were 24 hours ago! Do you guys have the same dilemma?
This is the first time ever that I experienced that; anyone with an answer?

 

[microstrip]

NEWSFLASH: In today's joint news conference between President Obama and British PM Cameron, the President mentioned that the PM has a "turntable" in his private residence and that the two of them listened to Prince's "Purple Rain" LP to "warm up" before their morning meeting. How cool is that? Two of the most powerful people on the planet listening to vinyl together.

Yes, but then the President also said that perhaps the PM should try a EC manufactured cartridge for greater warmth ...