Why CDs May Actually Sound Better Than Vinyl

[jkeny]

It appears to me that you like to have a battle and that doesn't interest me. The topic here is the OP and the article within. It is not related to me personally.

I'm sorry that you take it this way, Amir but it appears to me that your experience of vinyl is limited & hence your arguments are unduly limited & biased by that experience.

It is a good example of exactly what is being stated in this thread - it's all about implementation - good implementations in both vinyl & digital are what need to be compared to evaluate them.

You seem to be overly concerned with pops, clicks & groove noise as one reason why vinyl is inferior sounding & it now appears that your exposure to vinyl listening is limited to these lower quality implementations.

This is not a battle, Amir - it's the standard way I approach everyone's anecdotal listening experiences - finding out what their points of sonic reference are - as often this can be the most important aspect in evaluating the relevance of their impressions.

If you had stated that you had a good vinyl implementation beside a good digital implementation & you compared them side by side, then the value of your impressions would be greatly elevated, IMO

 

[NorthStar]

John, ? don't sweat the small stuff.
___________

This is sparta! ? http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/kronos-sparta-turntable/

"Now that I’ve had the Sparta on hand for some months, and have had time to really get to appreciate its remarkable contributions, I have been supremely impressed. Not to minimize any of the other optimizations and enhancements that Louis Desjardin has integrated into the Kronos ’tables—the high-performance motors, the precise bearings, the compound composite construction of both the plinths and platters, and the patented suspension system—but I believe that it is the implementation of the dual-platter, contra-rotational concept that has the most substantive effect in the Kronos design, and as such, is the single most significant development in turntable design in decades.

Honestly, once seeing and understanding it, as forthright and fundamentally simple as the idea is, it seems almost shocking that someone didn’t think of and apply this principle sooner. It is a game-changer. After living with my Redpoint Model D for seven years, and having steadfastly held off all other comers in its price range and above, I have traded in my Redpoint and now own the Kronos Sparta and Helena tonearm as my reference analog system. And I’ve never before been treated to vinyl playback from any system I’ve owned that is as clearly and profoundly moving as what I am now hearing."

 

[amirm]

I'm sorry that you take it this way, Amir but it appears to me that your experience of vinyl is limited & hence your arguments are unduly limited & biased by that experience.

Thank you for being sorry for me John. You are a kind individual. Turns out your sorrow is not needed. Just like Steve, I woke up yesterday and became an LP fan. No, it was not due to a pilgrimage to ddk's house. That would have made me go and buy a steam powered car. It was running into this in all of my LP research:

Had no idea LP had this effect on the opposite sex. As Steve used to say to me, "I am all in!"

Are there other LPs besides Jimmy Getzoff that has that effect? Do you have that LP John?

Can't wait to get me more LPs like that!

 

[jkeny]

Thank you for being sorry for me John. You are a kind individual. Turns out your sorrow is not needed. Just like Steve, I woke up yesterday and became an LP fan. No, it was not due to a pilgrimage to ddk's house. That would have made me go and buy a steam powered car. It was running into this in all of my LP research:

Had no idea LP had this effect on the opposite sex. As Steve used to say to me, "I am all in!"

Are there other LPs besides Jimmy Getzoff that has that effect? Do you have that LP John?

Can't wait to get me more LPs like that!

Never heard of him - I guess my experience is limited too?

 

[fas42]

The bit issue and losses along the way also seems to be the reason why nowadays everything is processed in the mixing/mastering chain with much greater bit depth than 16 bit, before it is formatted for CD. On the other hand, my 1986 CD of Bartok's violin sonatas on the lowly Hungaroton label, which probably never has seen anything above 16 bit in the chain, and perhaps was made with an ADC that at the time, like so many, had a practical resolution of under 16 bit, sounded wonderful on the dCS Rossini. Oh the mysteries of digital...

No mysteries at all, Al(?) ... digital playback is either right, or it ain't! The number of bits used in the recording chain is actually entirely irrelevant, I couldn't care less what the standard of the gear used at the time of the recording was! Reason being, that if the replay gear is working sufficiently well then any concerns about how the recording was done completely disappear - it all sounds wonderful!

I have some throwaway, $2 CDs from weird labels, of eastern European ensembles I've never seen mentioned anywhere else - on them, absolutely sublime solo violin, magic stuff that's immensely satisfying to listen to - it's a treasure trove out there!!

 

[Steve williams]

Thank you for being sorry for me John. You are a kind individual. Turns out your sorrow is not needed. Just like Steve, I woke up yesterday and became an LP fan. No, it was not due to a pilgrimage to ddk's house. That would have made me go and buy a steam powered car. It was running into this in all of my LP research:

Had no idea LP had this effect on the opposite sex. As Steve used to say to me, "I am all in!"

Are there other LPs besides Jimmy Getzoff that has that effect? Do you have that LP John?

Can't wait to get me more LPs like that!

you'll need more than that to have any effect on the opposite sex I'm afraid

 

[TBone]

Had no idea LP had this effect on the opposite sex.

Amir, she's delighted, as if you claimed a 12 inch tonearm ...

 

[microstrip]

Thank you for being sorry for me John. You are a kind individual. Turns out your sorrow is not needed. Just like Steve, I woke up yesterday and became an LP fan. No, it was not due to a pilgrimage to ddk's house. That would have made me go and buy a steam powered car. It was running into this in all of my LP research...)

IMHO this is a very unfair and even offensive comment. Steve went to DDK house to hear his system and wrote extensive posts describing his visit, his auditions, all in a long and very interesting narrative. He has been a long time poster about his listening, even at Audiogon long before WBF. David also extensively described his systems and other people who went there after him also posted their findings.

On the other side , what you are giving us are mostly short posts with negative criticism about most systems under sighted conditions, particularly on systems you do not represent or do not follow your view of science. We know your feelings about ticks and pops.

As you know I have mixed feelings concerning digital, depending on type of music. I appreciate reading from both sides, learning from digital and vinyl listeners, but IMHO this type of comments seems abusive. Just MHO.

 

[amirm]

you'll need more than that to have any effect on the opposite sex I'm afraid

You mean after all you spent on LP, it didn't work? You should have said that earlier Steve.

Good news is that there are other obsolete format ready for you to try. I suggest this:

And here is an instructional video to get you started:

The ladies will be at your door in no time....

 

[Steve williams]

yawn. At least I have a sound system that I can talk about

 

[amirm]

IMHO this is a very unfair and even offensive comment. Steve went to DDK house to hear his system and wrote extensive posts describing his visit, his auditions, all in a long and very interesting narrative. He has been a long time poster about his listening, even at Audiogon long before WBF. David also extensively described his systems and other people who went there after him also posted their findings.

Steve just wrote that it was all for not. Adopting said LP format had no effect on the opposite sex. So not sure what you are defending.

 

[PeterA]

Thank you for being sorry for me John. You are a kind individual. Turns out your sorrow is not needed. Just like Steve, I woke up yesterday and became an LP fan. No, it was not due to a pilgrimage to ddk's house. That would have made me go and buy a steam powered car.

Very bizarre comment. "Pilgrimage", "steam powered car"? Really?

David has started some fascinating threads on this forum and been a great contributor. He has experience, a very unique system and he sounds like a very gracious host. The fact that he is willing to share photos and his knowledge with the rest of us should be celebrated. Yet your comment about his system is quite insulting and really marks a new low when it comes to people describing each other's systems. Not nice at all. It is also a bit insulting to Steve, IMO.

 

[amirm]

Very bizarre comment. "Pilgrimage", "steam powered car"? Really?

David had started some fascinating threads on this forum and been a great contributor. He has experience, and very unique system and sounds like a very gracious host. the fact that he is willing to share photos and his knowledge with the rest of us should be celebrated. Yet your comment about his system is quite insulting and really marks a new low when it comes to people describing each other's systems. Not nice at all. It is also a bit insulting to Steve, IMO.

You think that was bad? You should see what david and I send back forth in private!

If you think David is at all sensitive this way, you have no idea who he is....

 

[Steve williams]

I'm going to suggest the thread get back on topic and we all drop the personal jabs. Since I started this thread I have ownership of it. As a result any more OT posts will be removed.

 

[fas42]

Frank, when you first started buying music as a kid...you were buying vinyl records to play on your turntable?
And then...what was the progression (or regression) from there to later on?

Bob, I started very similar to how many of the people here would have - my vinyl fling used that classic Grace tonearm, an ADC cartridge, TT was a local simple but effective belt drive effort, electronics were from a decent local kit design, speakers were Goodman Axiom 301s, in an enclosure I put together - was quite happy with it at the time.

Life got in the way, used a pretty decent Yamaha cassette deck as a quick and easy for a bit, then in a new relationship used the quite decent quality hifi gear from my partner, TT of course, which did a pretty nice job on many recordings - then CD hit the scene, decided to take it seriously now, waited until Yamaha came out with a unit that made sense to me, the top of line model at that moment. The latter developed tracking problems fairly soon, and the dealer did the right thing and swapped over to the next generation Yamaha best of, which is where it all started - I still have that Yamaha, which is still working ...

 

[NorthStar]

Frank, the vast majority of us here (I'd say 90% @ least) started spinning vinyl (I did try 8-track tapes for few weeks). And vinyl is still in my place today after all these years, even before I was born because my grandma was spinning vinyl too, and some old friends were spinning 78s records, including grandma.

When CDs came it was cool for the small format factor...new little shiny silver disc...but the sound was irritating, just plain awful.
Later on they made DACs sounding warm...to imitate vinyl. It flew more or less. But it took a long time for man to adjust to the sound he loved so much on vinyl to accept on CD.
I mean...look @ it this very logical and psychological way...we are used to spinning Neil Young's Harvest on LP for such a long time that our ears are @ best in our own comfort zone. This is just a small example; in the 50s people were spinning John Coltrane and Miles Davis and Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald and Billie Holiday and Frank Sinatra and Sonny Rollins and Thelonious Monk on vinyl and for 35 years and still after 85 years.
Our ears adapt to a certain sound that we like and are familiar with plus all the romance that is attached to it, and then CD came and started pissing on our cereals!
There's just no way our ears are going to immediately tell us that this is what we should be listening to. It takes time to readjust, to learn a new romance, for our ears to re-adapt to a new sound.
We don't talk much about that but it's very true.

Today, after 35 years the CD has made some progress. Did it catch vinyl? ...That's what we are trying to find out. And we all bring the elements of time and experience and wisdom to properly evaluate what all audio forums of the world have been talking about for the last 35 years! And in the interim vinyl has seen a resurgence like never before!
Now, that's real power. People are speaking with the love in their heart and ears. There is simply no more stronger reality than that.
CD is fabulous, vinyl is luminous. :b

 

[fas42]

When CDs came it was cool for the small format factor...new little shiny silver disc...but the sound was irritating, just plain awful.
Later on they made DACs sounding warm...to imitate vinyl. It flew more or less. But it took a long time for man to adjust to the sound he loved so much on vinyl to accept on CD.

Bob, the first rig I had for CD was extremely simple, the Yamaha had a naturally warm sound - even now, switched on from cold it's quite 'mellow'; it needs a long warm up for all the resolution to get on board, :b - overall most of the bits, pun intended, were in place from the word go for acceptable sound. During that bout of tweaking I visited the home of probably the most ambitious vinyl setup in Sydney - think Goldmund Reference, Audio Research monsters, Infinity IRS - and I didn't fall off my chair in amazement!

I learned very early in the piece to be extremely fussy with CD, and it paid dividends for my system - even in a low state of tune it was still pleasant on the ear ... it struck me very strongly that other systems I came across were relatively poorly sorted out; poor implementation and tuning dragged down the potential of most of them.

 

[NorthStar]

My first CD player was a Denon 1500 with BB DACs. It sounded so smooth and warm to the point of being shy, restricted, reserved and without any sparks...without life!
But, the CDs @ that time they weren't cooperating; they were contributing to that "shy" sound too.

Way before that, my first TT (I'm not shure of the brand - very very inexpensive) was a total joy to spin my first ever vinyl records on it.
And the vinyl albums I was buying @ the time was a delight to shop for (King Crimson & the gang). But it was my age that was the biggest account for...my own novelty and first ever own experience into the magic spinning music world.

I remember the first time ever I've heard The Rolling Stones - Let it Bleed spinning on that platter and the stylus carving peacefully into the grooves.
That magic moment, that love intensity level, emotional impact...there is nothing else that eclipsed it...it remains the apotheosis @ the precipice of music emancipation.
And it just happened that it was on vinyl, and that I was young and @ full delight of my innocence/virginity. :b

Now, nobody here is going to take that away from me, just no way and forever.

 

[fas42]

I remember the first time ever I've heard The Rolling Stones - Let it Bleed spinning on that platter and the stylus carving peacefully into the grooves.
That magic moment, that love intensity level, emotional impact...there is nothing else that eclipsed it...it remains the apotheosis @ the precipice of music emancipation.
And it just happened that it was on vinyl, and that I was young and @ full delight of my innocence/virginity. :b

Now, nobody here is going to take that away from me, just no way and forever.

Well, how about that ... that particular album I only ever experienced on CD - and it spoke to me too, - good thing I hadn't been contaminated by that mellifluous LP version beforehand, eh! ... .

 

[NorthStar]

But Frank, in 1969 I was already spinning vinyl, so that was my first time listening to The Rolling Stones - Let it Bleed album (Christmas holidays 1969).
It took you what...fifteen years to discover it on CD? :b /// It's all good, but true that I was @ the edge of music on vinyl in my youth.
What was coming in brand new in the late sixties/early seventies I was right on it. Every single week I was buying a vinyl album or two...sometimes three.
______

? This, a bonus, for anyone watching and listening: