Why Some Audiophiles Fear Measurements

[kareface]

After almost 40 years in this hobby, measurements are mostly a curiosity to me.

You would recognized that even things we don't have an standardized method of measurement still produces notable differences in measurements? Even if there's no metric there are clear differences in output when you swap a driver, turn the speaker, use a different amp, change your listening position, add treatments to the room, ect. What is your opinion on changes made to a system that produce no measurable difference?

Scepticism implies indecision.

They are unrelated, it would be like saying atheism implies evolution. You can have decisive skeptic and you can have indecisive dogmatists. To be a skeptic all that is required is that you question beliefs presumed to be true, usually until evidence is presented. I've been skeptical of many things in the past that I ended up supporting because enough evidence was presented to make the case. At the same time, the established beliefs that have frequently turned out to be false are ideas that perpetually lack evidence or the desire to follow the evidence to it's logical end is discouraged. I would take an indecisive skeptic over an decisive dogmatists any day of the week. To not have any interest in validating beliefs and to have no hesitation about makings decisions about those beliefs, that sounds like a great way to make lots of wrong decisions.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

You would recognized that even things we don't have an standardized method of measurement still produces notable differences in measurements? Even if there's no metric there are clear differences in output when you swap a driver, turn the speaker, use a different amp, change your listening position, add treatments to the room, ect. What is your opinion on changes made to a system that produce no measurable difference?

They are unrelated, it would be like saying atheism implies evolution. You can have decisive skeptic and you can have indecisive dogmatists. To be a skeptic all that is required is that you question beliefs presumed to be true, usually until evidence is presented. I've been skeptical of many things in the past that I ended up supporting because enough evidence was presented to make the case. At the same time, the established beliefs that have frequently turned out to be false are ideas that perpetually lack evidence or the desire to follow the evidence to it's logical end is discouraged. I would take an indecisive skeptic over an decisive dogmatists any day of the week. To not have any interest in validating beliefs and to have no hesitation about makings decisions about those beliefs, that sounds like a great way to make lots of wrong decisions.

Are you sure about that?

John

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

After almost 40 years in this hobby, measurements are mostly a curiosity to me.

Really? You've never been interested in assuring that your amp had enough power and current for your speakers? You've never had more than a passing interest in the impedance matches between components? The FR extension and response of your speakers and the effect it has on your room has never been of interest?

P

 

[Gregadd]

Why don't you guys read what I write?

... I actually witnessed the development of the high end. Reading every magazine I could get my hands on. Some used qualitative analysis, some quantitative analysis.I went to hi-fi shows. Hung out in stores. Not to mention buying my first stereo when I was still in high school. Just about every important measurement in High End Audio I observed it develop from theory into actual application. No I did not see it all. No I did not understand or agree with all of it Some of it was later discredited.

That's not the history of someone who ignored anything.

 

[Robh3606]

Just about every important measurement in High End Audio I observed it develop from theory into actual application.

I find this statement rather odd. I wasn't aware of any measurements derived from High End Audio?? All the basic measurments were there long before there was a High End. Typically measurements are driven from the engineering side. What measurements are you referring too??

Rob

 

[Gregadd]

I find this statement rather odd. I wasn't aware of any measurements derived from High End Audio?? All the basic measurments were there long before there was a High End. Typically measurements are driven from the engineering side. What measurements are you referring too??

Rob

This is a joke right? Kind of like when Ethan asked me to define musical. I sat on his whoopee cushion. I decline to sit on yours.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Why don't you guys read what I write?

... I actually witnessed the development of the high end. Reading every magazine I could get my hands on. Some used qualitative analysis, some quantitative analysis.I went to hi-fi shows. Hung out in stores. Not to mention buying my first stereo when I was still in high school. Just about every important measurement in High End Audio I observed it develop from theory into actual application. No I did not see it all. No I did not understand or agree with all of it Some of it was later discredited.

That's not the history of someone who ignored anything.

That's why I asked the questions, Greg. Because this statement....

After almost 40 years in this hobby, measurements are mostly a curiosity to me.

...didn't seem credible. It's ok. God knows I know how tempting overstatement, for effect, can be.

P

 

[Robh3606]

This is a joke right?

No. I just asked for an example. That would be a side of the High End I wasn't aware of. Have a nice day

Rob

 

[DonH50]

Hmmm... While nobody can accuse me of being anti-measurement, I tend to use the specs to get in the ballpark, then listen to the equipment. The specs rarely tell all about how it will sound in my system and room. However, if I wanted to perform more detailed measurements at home, as I have in the past both at places I worked and at home, I could, and chances are (almost certainly) I could find (and have found) differences in the appropriate measurements to explain why amp A and amp B sound different to me. I have most often found measurement data shows finer differences than we (or at least I and any folk I have ever worked with) can hear. That is, the resolving power of our test gear exceeds that of our ears.

Whether or not the right ("appropriate") measurements are made, in the right environment, is a whole 'nuther story. As I have said before, sometimes the ears guide us to new measurements, or at least different ones. And, I have used equipment that most audiophiles do not have access to, let alone understand how to use.

Still, there have been plenty of times when a listener has said repeatedly he (she, it, whatever) can hear something that has not been supported in a DBT. Typically, when I have been involved with DBT (AB or ABX), there's a long "acclimatization" process where the listeners hear everything in the open and note differences, perceptions, things they hear that are differences, etc. The DBT then confirms they can hear those (or not) without visual cues. I have used fast switching, slow switching, spread the tests over different days and times, you name it as people tried to determine whether they could really hear a difference or not. Sometimes the answer was yes, sometimes no. Some accepted the results (either way) more gracefully than others...

I think a lot of folk confuse "specifications" with "measurements". - Don

 

[Robh3606]

think a lot of folk confuse "specifications" with "measurements". - Don

How do you think the two are confused?

Rob

 

[Ethan Winer]

Kind of like when Ethan asked me to define musical. I sat on his whoopee cushion.

Not to beat this to death, but you never did manage to define musical. Hopefully you now acknowledge there's no such thing, other than as a way to say "I like it."

--Ethan

 

[kareface]

Are you sure about that?

John

Oh god yes. Dogma is a plague on most societies, mostly because it's associated with faith (I'm referring to beliefs that lack evidential support, not specifically religion, even tho religion is one of those beliefs). If you don't have objective grounds to support your opinion there's no telling the validity of your beliefs. Some of the greatest minds were indecisive skeptics, Charles Darwin to name one.

 

[DonH50]

How do you think the two are confused?

Rob

Specifications are what's on a product data sheet or brochure. They are (hopefully!) derived from measurements. Measurements are the actual data taken and analyzed to define (or verify conformance to) the specifications.

I am not an English major; “confuse” may be the wrong word. What I have observed many times over the years are people who think the specifications fully define a component (from phono cartridge to speakers) without understanding how they were derived nor their limitations. E.g., power ratings into a test load will probably not be the same as the power delivered into your loudspeaker. By focusing only on specifications they are choosing based upon inadequate knowledge and understanding.

They are many measurements behind most every spec, and many more measurements that can be, and often are, performed that do not show up as a spec on a data sheet (product brochure). And even more measurements that need to be done in the right environment to be meaningful, or to (more) fully define a component, e.g. how the amp sounds in your system is a function of more than the typical featured specifications. I can make measurements, analyze them, and find out what’s going on, but that’s not something the typical audiophile does or thinks about. Ultimately, many audiophiles simply give up on using anything but the most basic specs for comparison, and there’s something to be said for that.

Of course, many engineers become frustrated from measuring something that we cannot hear, so it works both ways. The difference between 0.001% THD and 0.005% THD looks good in the marketing material, but makes little difference in the real world. So off we go knocking ourselves out to build a measurement system to distinguish the two, knowing it won’t really matter to any listener…

As an engineer, I have been bitten many times by incomplete or missing product specifications. Sometimes something is taken for granted and left off (but I thought you knew we needed 5 V compatible outputs from your 2 V part?), sometimes a test condition is inadequate (didn’t we tell you the load is 1 nF, not 100 pF?), etc.

So, to me specifications and measurements are quite different but interdependent. I prefer measurements to specifications, using specs just to narrow my choices.

HTH - Don

 

[kareface]

Don hit the nail on the head. Specifications aren't designed to do anything other than promote a product. They frequently don't represent real world situations or are distorted to provide a positive impression. Measurements represent data, specifications is how a select portion of that data is presented.

 

[Gregadd]

Not to beat this to death, but you never did manage to define musical. Hopefully you now acknowledge there's no such thing, other than as a way to say "I like it."

--Ethan

On the contrary I plucked it right out of JGH's glossary. You and others never accepted the definition. That's fine with me.

 

[Ron Party]

Oh god yes. Dogma is a plague on most societies, mostly because it's associated with faith (I'm referring to beliefs that lack evidential support, not specifically religion, even tho religion is one of those beliefs). If you don't have objective grounds to support your opinion there's no telling the validity of your beliefs. Some of the greatest minds were indecisive skeptics, Charles Darwin to name one.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

Great post. One cannot reason someone out of a position who did not use reason to arrive at that position. A inviolate faith exists solely within the world of the faith holder. It exists for no one else. For this reason, amongst others, Jeff Fritz's article is correct in explaining why some Audiophiles fear measurements.

 

[Gregadd]

Hmmm... While nobody can accuse me of being anti-measurement, I tend to use the specs to get in the ballpark, then listen to the equipment. The specs rarely tell all about how it will sound in my system and room. However, if I wanted to perform more detailed measurements at home, as I have in the past both at places I worked and at home, I could, and chances are (almost certainly) I could find (and have found) differences in the appropriate measurements to explain why amp A and amp B sound different to me. I have most often found measurement data shows finer differences than we (or at least I and any folk I have ever worked with) can hear. That is, the resolving power of our test gear exceeds that of our ears.

Whether or not the right ("appropriate") measurements are made, in the right environment, is a whole 'nuther story. As I have said before, sometimes the ears guide us to new measurements, or at least different ones. And, I have used equipment that most audiophiles do not have access to, let alone understand how to use.

Still, there have been plenty of times when a listener has said repeatedly he (she, it, whatever) can hear something that has not been supported in a DBT. Typically, when I have been involved with DBT (AB or ABX), there's a long "acclimatization" process where the listeners hear everything in the open and note differences, perceptions, things they hear that are differences, etc. The DBT then confirms they can hear those (or not) without visual cues. I have used fast switching, slow switching, spread the tests over different days and times, you name it as people tried to determine whether they could really hear a difference or not. Sometimes the answer was yes, sometimes no. Some accepted the results (either way) more gracefully than others...

I think a lot of folk confuse "specifications" with "measurements". - Don

I 've been called an "anti-measurement subjectivist." Funny thing is, I'm not even offended anymore. Don I'm not surprised that a self proscribed "hairy knuckled engineer" can measure. I'm not an engineer. I never said there was no correlation between measurement and what we hear. i demand and expect the designers of my equipment to measure and hear. Even though they don't admit it almost all audiophiles do what I do. They leave designing and measuring to the designer /manufacturer. Then they evaluate the results. After forty years I take some things for granted. Most of the problems I have are complex. I leave most of them to the experts. I am unable to design an amplifier but, I sure can assess its 'performance in my system! I pay attention to the results. Other than changing the oil, or a flat tire ,I never work on my Mercedes. That does not mean I don't have a rudimentary understanding of how it works. After all I did choose the six cylinder over the eight and the 4matic over 2 wheel drive.

Don did not we just have a discussion over the lay persons attitude toward measurements and his ability to understand them?

Check my thread with the interview where I posted the interview of Harry Pearson of the absolute sound. Keep scrolling down you will see examples of DBT at Harmon international which I posted. Furthermore you will see a brief discussion of a true DBT protocol. I should point tout that DBT/ABX is not a true DBT protocol because it is impossible to have a control group.
Finally, In a true DBT protocol there is no such thing as passing or failing. Because in true DBT the participants have no stake in the outcome. Rarely the case in audiophile "shootouts." I know, yes the sick have a stake in being healed. I'm talking about the scientific proof.

 

[Gregadd]

No. I just asked for an example. That would be a side of the High End I wasn't aware of. Have a nice day

Rob

Jitter. Is it it an artifact of digital? Can it be measured? Has it been the subject of countless articles? Have manufacturers/ designers tried to address it in the design of thier digital products? I assume you have a computer. Please Google jitter just for fun and see if any articles come up. In conclusion then I have not participated in it. But I have witnesses the theory evolve and its' attempted application to actual digital products. That scenario has repeated itself countless times over my forty years in audio. I hope no one laughed at the "farting" sound from me sitting on your whoopee cushion.

 

[Gregadd]

I wonder how you measuremnt guys get through your day. Surely your senses are totally inadequate to perform the normal human functions. Is that really bacon I smell? Is that really my wife and child or does it just resemble them? Am I on the correct route to work? Is today really Friday? Can I walk down the street without tripping over my feet. Yes mistakes can be made. Human can be tricked. Overall not only have we survived ,relying on our senses has allowed us to enjoy life. We create aromatic fragrances;we create music, paint pictures; and season our food. Come on guys loosen up and enjoy the ride.

 

[Ethan Winer]

Surely your senses are totally inadequate to perform the normal human functions.

Not all senses, but hearing certainly. It affects everyone, including you.

--Ethan