Why Some Audiophiles Fear Measurements

[DonH50]

Gregadd, I am not sure where we disagree, or even if we do? If I summarize rightly, you believe measurements don't tell all, and I believe they probably can but only if the right measurement is taken the right way. I realize I qualified that statement (a nice way of saying "weasel-worded") a bit. For my part, I think that what ultimately matters is what you like to hear, irrespective of whatever the specs and measurements say, or even how "accurate" it is (accurate relative to what?). I then wandered off into into a rant on specs vs. measurements, a mistake I paid for by having to follow up with another long-winded post explaining myself.

My point is, or should have been, that measurements do not matter without listening, but they can help make listening better. And, me being a curious type, measurements can help my understanding of how things work and what matters. Example: comb filtering explains nicely why the sound changes by a mile when we move our head an inch, and measurements can show the effect and help us improve (reduce) it through proper acoustic treatment. At the end of the day, after I have made my measurements and tweaked my panels for the best response, my final test is sitting down with some music I like and listening to the result.

As has already been stated, I think a lot of audiophiles take pride in not knowing what the measurements mean, or at least in not using measurements (not saying you are one of them!), and are afraid some measurement might prove them "wrong" on something. What is good sound is subjective, there is no right or wrong for what you like. (Within reason; murder may not be wrong to you, you might even like it, but there are levels of "wrongness" we should not cross, imo. ) We can debate accuracy etc. but I'd rather not.

Think I am wandering again, sorry. Long day and I am typing whilst waiting for a simulation to finish and our IT guy to find out why a directory containing six months of work suddenly disappeared off our server! - Don

p.s. Read your "measurement guys" post after finishing this one. I'll just say I manage to muddle through somehow. Actually, I need to dig up my rehearsal CD and mark up my music before I practice tonight. It involves counting measure numbers...

 

[terryj]

I am unable to design an amplifier but, I sure can assess its 'performance in my system! I pay attention to the results.

Why then was it such a big deal that *we* needed to have designed something to give credibility to our feelings that measurements have worth?

I mean talk about silly, poor non-correlations.

I guess because you have never recorded an album (either as an artist or the tech side) you can not make a comment about whether the music itself is good or the recording quility is good or bad.

Sheesh. I shake my head often at how pathetic some get when trying to 'win' a net argument.

I wonder how you measuremnt guys get through your day. Surely your senses are totally inadequate to perform the normal human functions. Is that really bacon I smell? Is that really my wife and child or does it just resemble them? Am I on the correct route to work? Is today really Friday? Can I walk down the street without tripping over my feet. Yes mistakes can be made. Human can be tricked. Overall not only have we survived ,relying on our senses has allowed us to enjoy life. We create aromatic fragrances;we create music, paint pictures; and season our food. Come on guys loosen up and enjoy the ride.

Oops, I spoke to soon.

Ever talk in things other false generalisations or mischaracterisations greg?

Look, if you just left it at 'measurements have no use for ME' then there would not be the faintest rumble from anyone. As you rightly pointed out, not everyone wants to be a mechanic...but we sure as hell hope HE knows what he is doing yeah?

Cool, so you place your faith in the designers of your gear, be it electronics or transducers. After all, it is their job right?

Tell me, when did they ever visit your room? Did THEY set up your speakers for you? Is there the slightest chance that somewhere in these stupid measurements there could be something practical and useful for the most dogmatic measurements hater in the world??

I'd bet the answer is no (rather than 'I doubt it for me still').

BUT, how would you KNOW? You refused to even bloody look!! I mean you could have looked and THEN said, 'nope, still no use for me'. A few may have shaken their heads anyway, dunno, but at least you would have had the brass ones to look.

But to just refuse and STILL cloak it in the thin veneer of holier than thou frankly stuns me. But, I am impressed that you know the difference between integral and differential equations.

Dunno why, but the old tale of galileo just telling the papal gathering to 'look, there, put your eye to the eyepiece' comes to mind.......................nope, certainty and self righteousness 'won' the day for those not willing to look.

 

[Gregadd]

Uhm... let's see. "silly" "poor non correlations" "pathetic" "dogmatic measurement hater" "brass ones(thank you)" "cloak it in the thin veneer of holier than thou" "self righteousness " just wen I was getting used to being called an "anti measurement subjectivist." or Old Listener's' invitation, "to feel free to be insulted by my own ignorance." While someone did not actually say it, someone insinuated I was a "troll." Oh yeah, not to mention the attack on my spelling. After forty years you think you are the first to broach the subject of room treatment to me? Take my word for it, room treatment is just the latest end all be all fad in audio. beleive me, I seen a ton of 'em come and go along with my hard earned pride and money.

In the words of Jewel, Please be gentle to me, I'm sensitive and I'd like to stay that way." Probably misquoted. I stepped on that CD one night when I had a little too much to drink.

Allow me to add another sense you measurement guys should work on: Sense of Humor.

Finally any audiophile could do quite well, if he duplicated my system.

BTW I know lots of legal jargon too. See, Blacks Law Dictionary

 

[Gregadd]

Don -could you come over to my thread? http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?1600-What-to-look-for-in-a-power-amp

I wan to talk about speaker efficiency, decibel watts and how to take a speakers efficiency rating, nominal impedance and amplifier watts and convert it into actual spl for the speaker.

 

[terryj]

You need to read. Dogmnatic meaurements hater was not specifically directed towards you, can you not see the point I was making rather than you interpretation of it?

Room, treatment, sigh. Yep, you must be a mind reader greg, that was where I was going.

Not.

Can you not see, once again, all you are aguing with are your own preconceived notions? How the f*ck do you know what I was going to say or not say?

that's right, you have not the faintest bloody idea do you.

But you go on your assumptions. well done lad.

Ah, you're a lawyer, remember now. Do you approach your law practice the same way as you do audio? Assume, or do you find out facts then decide??

I can well imagins a cookie cutter approach to law would make life easier for you, but what about the client?

Same deal here, a cookie cutter approach to audio may rock your boat, but what about others who may want to learn?

 

[Gregadd]

Alright terrj I tried to be funny. I think you crossed the line. I'm out.

 

[DonH50]

Hmmm... I do not recall calling anyone a troll, nor even insinuating that. I have made fun of spelling mistakes, mine and others; if one was yours, I apologize. It is very clear when I forget to spell-check one of my own posts! On the Internet, nobody can see you smile -- it's very easy for people to take insult at something said in jest.

I'll toddle off the to the amp thread. - Don

 

[kareface]

Take my word for it, room treatment is just the latest end all be all fad in audio.

Wow. I'm almost speechless. Explain what aspect of acoustics is a fad? A) Sound interacts with the environment it's generated in. B) Making some adjustments to that environment will change that interaction. As long as you have rooms, speakers and air, you'll need some treatment. Bass wants to hang around, highs like to fizzle out. We aren't talking about something that requires a background in science, this should be pretty intuitive stuff for someone who's been around for as long as you have.

 

[Gregadd]

Hmmm... I do not recall calling anyone a troll, nor even insinuating that.

Don I did not say it was you. The person knows who they are.

 

[Gregadd]

Wow. I'm almost speechless. Explain what aspect of acoustics is a fad? A) Sound interacts with the environment it's generated in. B) Making some adjustments to that environment will change that interaction. As long as you have rooms, speakers and air, you'll need some treatment. Bass wants to hang around, highs like to fizzle out. We aren't talking about something that requires a background in science, this should be pretty intuitive stuff for someone who's been around for as long as you have.

So whats' new except maybe the fancy computer waterfalls. Are bass traps new? Treatment of first reflection points? Has it not always existed in recording studios? They only thing new is the emphasis placed on it. That will fade as we discover some new parameter or invent a better way to deal with an old one. It will fade for no other reason than everyone has thier room treated. Todays groundbeaker is tomorrows standard or soemtimes tommorrows boat anchor.That has always been the case.
Acoustic suspension speakers were once the rage. Solid state was once the rage. Direct drive quartzlocked tutrntables were once the rage. On turtables we've gone full circle back to idler wheels. Whoever thoughtt SETs' and horns would come back. Before you guys jump all over somebody you should check your history.

 

[kareface]

Don I did not say it was you. The person knows who they are.

I would actually wager they don't, I don't remember 1/2 the conversations I have until I go back and reread them.

So whats' new except maybe the fancy computer waterfalls. Are bass traps new? Treatment of first reflection points? Has it not always existed in recording studios? They only thing new is the emphasis placed on it. That will fade as we discover some new parameter or invent a better way to deal with an old one. It will fade for no other reason than everyone has thier room treated. Todays groundbeaker is tomorrows standard or soemtimes tommorrows boat anchor.That has always been the case.
Acoustic suspension speakers were once the rage. Solid state was once the rage. Direct drive quartzlocked tutrntables were once the rage. On turtables we've gone full circle back to idler wheels. Whoever thoughtt SETs' and horns would come back. Before you guys jump all over somebody you should check your history.

I've seen a lot of neat things that have developed in acoustics. But that isn't really the issue at hand.

There's never been a time where well thought out acoustical treatment didn't improve reproduction. There are lots of good reasons why things have left the audio scene, and people trying to revive them is novel. Ignoring one of the few things in reproduction with almost no downsides, hordes of data to support it and identifiable benefits because you consider it to be a fad seems silly. I'll present a hypothetical: Let's assume it is a fad instead of a trend, and next week everyone rips all their treatments off their walls. Even with that in mind I wouldn't regret for a moment taking the time to treat my room, nor should you. Something being a fad should have no impact on its efficacy. Not doing something beneficial on the basis of it being a fad is being stubborn for no good reason. Even more so for someone like yourself who's seen fads come and go.

 

[Ron Party]

kareface, that proper room treatments provide objectively verifiable improvement in sound quality, just like proper positioning of speakers and the main listening seat provide objectively verifiable improvement in sound quality, is not legitimately disputable.

now one may come along with his/her fingers firmly implanted in his/her ears, saying words to the effect of "nah nah nah, I can't hear you" or "I don't want to hear you" for whatever reason, but whatever it is, it is not based on fact. At best it is based on a flavor choice in sound, at worst I suppose it is willful ignorance.

It just goes to show you that while indisputably some Audiophiles fear measurements, some are ignorant about them, and some of those are purposefully so. For the latter group trying to discuss the matter is, as you state, Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

 

[DonH50]

It has been a long time since HS Latin and all those pre-med classes I took before finding my way; could somebody help out an ignorant old engineer and translate that, please?

 

[Robh3606]

That scenario has repeated itself countless times over my forty years in audio. I hope no one laughed at the "farting" sound from me sitting on your whoopee cushion.

Hello Gregadd

You know something I never responded to you in a manner that warranted a reply like that. I ignored your first inference about a whoopee cushion but I am not ignoring this one. You need to chill. You are not setting a very friendly tone. This is supposed to be an open discussion there is no reason to get nasty.

Rob

 

[terryj]

hmm, I note that is often a fear reaction....

 

[kareface]

It has been a long time since HS Latin and all those pre-med classes I took before finding my way; could somebody help out an ignorant old engineer and translate that, please?

"What is asserted freely, is denied freely." is about as close as you can get. It means something asserted with out proof does not require proof to reject. It's nice to see someone who understands the aphorism.

 

[amirm]

Reading the last few pages, the thread seems to be going sideways guys and focusing on people rather than topics. Let's get it back on the track and not risk having it be closed.

Some folks may also want to take a break and go listen to some relaxing music . Don't stress over the words here please.

 

[DonH50]

Thank you, I should have figured that out -- forgot the change in verb/subject placement...

"What (is) freely asserted, (is) freely denied"; Wikipedia (which I should have used before bugging people) says "what is asserted without reason may be denied without reason".

"Man is not a rational animal; he is a rationalizing one." - Heinlein

p.s. Was writing as Amir posted. Ironically, tonight I watched a new (to me) movie, Clash of the Titans.

 

[terryj]

is that a movie you said?? or a description of this thread haha.

Oh, and to clarify my contribution to the thread (f word), which would be in part the reason for the amirs comment. It was NOT used in anger (I accept and have been admonished for it) or frustration, but was used to depict incredulity...I was astonished that someone could read my kind. As such, it was not meant as an attack or an outburst, but of course I can see it being taken completely differently than intended.

that was my fault for not being clear, and I apologise for using it.

 

[Gregadd]

Hello Gregadd

You know something I never responded to you in a manner that warranted a reply like that. I ignored your first inference about a whoopee cushion but I am not ignoring this one. You need to chill. You are not setting a very friendly tone. This is supposed to be an open discussion there is no reason to get nasty.

Rob

I apologize if I offended you. It just occurred to me that tone of your question was not a request for information, but a sort of you can't explain the concept because it does not make any sense. Yeah I think we all need to chill. I had no idea my lack of interest in room treatment would irritate so many people.