Why Some Audiophiles Fear Measurements

[silviajulieta]

Never heard of them.

Dear Kal: Well, I think you are part of the AHEE. Here you can read something about , my answer to Ron question in that subject:


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Originally Posted by Ron Party
Raul, I for one am always ready to question existing thoughts regarding audio reproduction and I think many others share the same willingness. In fact we are seeing this sort of questioning play out in many different areas of recording and reproduction and the results are panning out for the betterment of all of us.

Witness, for instance, the studies performed by Todd Welti and Allan Devantier on the one hand and Earl Geddes on the other to which I made reference in starting this thread on multiple subwoofer placements. It used to be the case that many just assumed subwoofers ought to be placed in the front corners of the room, then scientifically derived evidence proved that there were other, usually if not always better, places for multiple subwoofer placement.

As an aside, can you answer a few questions? I keep reading your reference to an "AHEE". I read back through your posts to find out the meaning of this acronym. But what is it really? For instance, who gets to define what is *high end*? How does one become a member of this *establishment*?

I ask these questions because I think it is relevant to the ongoing discussion of 1 versus 2 box electronics (and speakers are not excluded from this discussion). There are an awful lot of excellent products out there and I get the sense that for you the price of one's gear is the main determinant whether one is an AHEE member.

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Dear Ron: I knew/know that several a lot of people made and make that kind of " questioning " exercise, I insist on it because I posted and people stay in silence. Glad to confirm that many of we are in the same " channel ".

Yes, the subwoofer subject maybe is not full " understand " subject. I use subs ( two because I can't use four. ) and are not at the room corners but in an unusual placement.


Now, how gets to define what is high end?, we can't find it in a dictionary for sure. IMHO the High End is an audio level community that form part of the whole audio industry. In some ways is a concept where the main people targets is to attain the best quality performance ( at different price levels. ) in a home system to enjoy the music and where that target can be achived. The high end represent too a overall status level that only can be achieve it inside the HE environment/space.
The audio items/links in the audio chain, recording industry, concepts like: room treatment, system know how for set up, own audio experiences, reviewers, audio dealers, audio forums, some audio magazynes, etc, etc are only " tools " to achieve the main target.
Everyone has his own high end definition, this is my today opinion about.

We are inside the HE when its happen that the HE target even our main target and we use those tools trying to be " there ".

No I don't think that the price is a determinat factor to be inside the AHEE, the price even can't tell for sure at what real HE level we are in our main target quest and in the HE audio ladder. It is more determinant the " tools " you choosed and your own skills to " handle " those tools in favor of the main target.

For many years the price was determinant in the audio items I bought till I learn what is important and what not to take a buy decision that can put me near of the main target where the price tell me only if I can afford or not.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.


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Regrads and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Can we agree that the "Source" is the CD/SADC/Vinyl ??

Rob

Evidently we cannot. The argument is predicated on a phantom source -- the live performance that never existed in the overwhelming majority of commercial recordings, the sounds of instruments that were altered, even by the simplest, purest recording techniques, the moment we listened with microphones instead of ears. By such logic, there is no reference, leading to a game in which accuracy cannot be determined and subjectivity must rule by default. In that game, my clock radio is better than your $100k system if I say it is; Michael Fremer's phono preamp from Raul's post above can have "gigantic" bass extension, even when it is obviously rolled-off, and designers and manufacturers have no objective to work toward but what audiophiles seem to like. It can, and in many cases has, reduced the audiophile endeavor to bad marketing and worse reporting. Thankfully, many designers don't agree with this point of view. They recognize that the source, the reference point, is the recording and they design with that in mind. Sometimes they still color that source to taste, but at least they seem to understand what they're working toward, that their equipment is not meant to chase phantoms but to reproduce the signal it sees. And a few still seek higher fidelity to the source, the recording. I thank them.

P

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Musicality is faithful to real music and is both consonant and disconsonant. So if you used the term to describe something you liked knowing it to be inacrrate then you misused the term.

I "misused" it intentionally. In my opinion, it is an unnecessary term. Faithfulness = accuracy.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Thanks but
1. It's Kal, not Karl.
2. AHEE has no meaning to me.

Kal

 

[Gregadd]

I "misused" it intentionally. In my opinion, it is an unnecessary term. Faithfulness = accuracy.

If it matters to you at all, I will know hat you mean and you will know what I mean.

 

[silviajulieta]

Thanks but
1. It's Kal, not Karl.
2. AHEE has no meaning to me.

Kal

Dear Kal: Well the High End comunity where IMHO belongs: HE manufacturers/designers, customers/audiophiles, audio distributors/retailers, HE audio magazynes, HE internet forums, virtual HE magazynes, etc, etc. is a form of whole Establishment that is conformed with his owns years of experiences, non write rules, standards, especial characteristics ( there is not a Chairman of the Board because there is no Board. ) and the like. We all ( almost all ) conforms that HE-community that I name it AHEE.

Is thank's to that AHEE/HE-community that we are here. IMHO almost all of us belongs to that HE-community/AHEE that's different from other audio communities.

That for you has no meaning does not means that HE-community/AHEE does not exist because is " here ", alive and growing up!.

IMHO the AHEE is beyond what you, me or any one else can/could think about: just exist and this is a fact!!! that does not needs any one " blessing ".

Btw, like it want it or not you already are inside the AHEE and unfortunately you just can't do nothing about because is not your choice to be there: you are there!.

Regards and enjoy the music,
raul.

 

[Gregadd]

Can we agree that the "Source" is the CD/SADC/Vinyl ??

Rob

There are various storage media. Although we associate various coloration to each medium that problem more likely comes form errors in execution or the associated equipment. At lest we are finding that out with digital. Consequently when others speak of the source I assume there are referring to the signal contained in that medium.

 

[silviajulieta]

If someone would tell me how we can know what the source sounds like I would never argue this point again. Please don't say null test.

Dear Gregadd: Your statement seems to me a little " dogmatic " aand with no precise answer because where can we find or have the real souns source performance in any single LP/CD we own?.
But this fact IMHO does not diminish in any way the word " accuracy/accurate " because IMHO this is what some of us are looking for through our endless system " up-grade " hunting to the audio-heaven quest.

What means to me accuracy/accurate?: Be truer to the recording: loosing and adding the less to the audio signal.

How can be nearest to that statement?, examples: matching speaker/amplifier impedances ( amplifier output impedance/speaker electrical impedance curve. ), matching tonearm/cartridge, perfect tonearm/cartridge set up, using integrated phono/line stages instead separate phono stage and line stage, choosing satelite/subwoofer (active ) speaker system instead passive full range speakers, looking for the lower RIAA eq deviation in phono stages, matching romm/speakers performance, cleaning time to time system cable connectors ( when was the last time you made a deep cleaning system? ), away of tubes and SUT's, shorting/made short length all the cables we use in the system, choosing the right electronics with lower THD wide and flat frequency response with very low output impedance with same gain and frequency response in both channels, speakers with the lower IMD at different SPL, improving your audio/music overall knowledge, etc, etc.

As better accuracy has your audio system as nearest you are from the recording and higher the reproduced music enjoyment. Accuracy in many ways is the name of the game. Now, the capacity or training that each one of us have to discern about is something important but does not change the accuracy concept: each one of us ears has different level of accuracy.
Please, I'm not talking here about what we like but what's accurate and what that means. If we don't like an accurate performance does not means is wrong that's only means we have to follow learning till we have the audio/music mature to understand it.

The whole subject could be like: what do you choose to go at ( near ) the Everest mountain? a swimsuit or the snow wholñe dressing? do you want to compete in the Monaco Grand Prix with a cycle or with a Ferrari Formula One car?, it is the same in HE audio: you need the right " tools " to be nearest to the recording, if this is your target and if not you always can " swim " to the Himalayas like a lot of people use to do it every single day.

Btw, I agree with what you posted Phelonius Ponk.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[Ethan Winer]

Dear Gregadd: Your statement seems to me a little " dogmatic " aand with no precise answer because where can we find or have the real souns source performance in any single LP/CD we own?. But this fact IMHO does not diminish in any way the word " accuracy/accurate"

No kidding, and this drives me nuts. I have explained at least 30 or 40 different times this past year alone that what you like is subjective and cannot be measured. This is totally different from accuracy, which is easy to define and just as easy to measure. Yet no matter how many times I explain it, the same people argue over and over anyway. It's like there's a blind spot in their reasoning apparatus. I don't get it. Why is this so difficult for people to understand?

--Ethan

 

[Gregadd]

I don't think you could be a little dogmatic.

Just what I woudl expect from a solid state guy.

 

[silviajulieta]

No kidding, and this drives me nuts. I have explained at least 30 or 40 different times this past year alone that what you like is subjective and cannot be measured. This is totally different from accuracy, which is easy to define and just as easy to measure. Yet no matter how many times I explain it, the same people argue over and over anyway. It's like there's a blind spot in their reasoning apparatus. I don't get it. Why is this so difficult for people to understand?

--Ethan

Dear Ethan: +++++ " Why is this so difficult for people to understand? " +++++ IMHO because that's what we learn through the AHEE that not always is right.

Mostly the AHEE has a full commercial busines$$ orientation ( nothing wrong with that. ) and Science can goes many times against that $$$ target and how they are achiving it.

IMHO Science always can help the AHEE where we belongs to improve and to grow up faster and truer/truest. The Science exist and is out there for we can use it in favor of what we are looking for: Audio/Music Heaven Home System Reproduction For All!

So IMHO everyone of us could help each self asking : what can I do/change/modified in my audio system for the system being more accurate?

Regrads and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[silviajulieta]

I don't think you could be a little dogmatic.

Just what I woudl expect from a solid state guy.

Dear Gregadd: I'm not a solid state guy. I use that technology just by " accident ", is the one that put me nearest to the recording: the one with lesser distortions/noises/colorations, the one that permit add and loss the less, the one that......, the one that....., etc, etc.

I'm first than all a music lover and that's why after years of testing any single electronic alternative technology I choose what I have. All of us need to grow up and when this happen at some level we can understand many things and we can " disclose " several AHEE myths on what today we believe and that unfortunately are wrong in some areas.

IMHO our " believes " has the right to change and as a fact it changes along how we go up or down in our personal audio/music learning curve .

We have the right to improve our selfs we have the right to be BETTER and we can do it if we know HOW.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[Gregadd]

I don't wanna gowup. Because everytime someone asks me to grow up they want me to abandon what I know to be true. With respect to" not getting it,
' Right bact at you."

 

[silviajulieta]

I don't wanna gowup. Because everytime someone asks me to grow up they want me to abandon what I know to be true. With respect to" not getting it,
' Right bact at you."

Dear Gregadd: Grow up or not, that's your privilege.

Btw, I am not asking you abandon something specific I'm only telling you: grow up!.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[Gregadd]

Raul I can never get mad at you

 

[MylesBAstor]

No most audiophiles just don't care. Leave it to the engineers to argue about the details.

 

[silviajulieta]

Hi Raul,

You make a lot of well thought out points. But now maybe you have learned, the biggest point. Magazines are to sell products, and stereophile job is to sell advertising space because they send it to you for a dollar (or even less) per issue. Stereophile job is to make money. Your job is to read the magazine for entertainment and although they do run some measurements, you will observe that they are in no way the full complement of measurements that could be run and even when something measures badly, the subjective reviewer can always say it sounds marvelous!

Do you really think that someone can put one audio piece of gear, for example a preamp, and ignore the other (tt, cartridege, it to preamp, it to power amp, speaker cable, speaker, speaker/room interface, old man ears, etc) parts of the system and the resulting sound. It is the game, it is entertainment! Look and see what is new there instead of just checking the manufacturers websites.

Have fun, laugh, enjoy the writing in the articles, look at the advertisements, but do not believe they somehow can tell you what something sounds like in your system and room and your ears......you know all this....just thought your long post deserved some comment and aknowledgement! I enjoyed your post and it was entertaining too!

Tom

Dear Tomelex: Yes I know that but why is so difficult to make money in a honest way with out use wrong and deliberate corrupted information? why a magazyne that we paid for it think we don't " read " or understand what they writed? why can they think that are doing a favor to products like the Vitus one? why even could they think are working in honest way and helping the manufacturers and helping the customers? . Or maybe they not even " think " about?

Yes it is an enterntaiment and yes it is my privilege and " culprit " buy/bought it or not. Not all is wrong/bad in the AHEE or in this kind of magazynes, this part is part of the trade offs we accept when we want that kind of " entertainment " with the good information we can find there.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

If it matters to you at all, I will know hat you mean and you will know what I mean.

Then, fundamentally, we understand each other and that's just fine.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Dear Kal: Well the High End comunity where IMHO belongs: HE manufacturers/designers, customers/audiophiles, audio distributors/retailers, HE audio magazynes, HE internet forums, virtual HE magazynes, etc, etc. is a form of whole Establishment that is conformed with his owns years of experiences, non write rules, standards, especial characteristics ( there is not a Chairman of the Board because there is no Board. ) and the like. We all ( almost all ) conforms that HE-community that I name it AHEE.

Is thank's to that AHEE/HE-community that we are here. IMHO almost all of us belongs to that HE-community/AHEE that's different from other audio communities.

That for you has no meaning does not means that HE-community/AHEE does not exist because is " here ", alive and growing up!.

IMHO the AHEE is beyond what you, me or any one else can/could think about: just exist and this is a fact!!! that does not needs any one " blessing ".

Btw, like it want it or not you already are inside the AHEE and unfortunately you just can't do nothing about because is not your choice to be there: you are there!.

Regards and enjoy the music,
raul.

That may be and similar exist in many spheres. OTOH, it doesn't factor into my personal considerations.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Hi Myles, well it could be I suppose. But I thought folks get into hobbies because they enjoy them and just naturally progress in their knowledge
as part of the hobby. If one purely loves music, and not tech data of any sort, then I suppose that would fill the bill as you state.

Tom

OK, I'm sure there are some female audiophiles out there who totally enjoy the music (I don't want this to sound sexist-just that men tend to be more techno- and equipment oriented while many women just like to listen). My ex- and present GF fit that category That's not to take away from women like Eve Anna, Mary and Colleen Cardas, and many others.