Why Some Audiophiles Fear Measurements

[Ethan Winer]

everytime someone asks me to grow up they want me to abandon what I know to be true.

This goes to the heart of the divide between the science and anti-science types. Would you like to debate this one-on-one in the Invited Debates section? I can tell you now that my first volley would be to ask you to prove how you know it's true.

I think this would be a good exercise in logical thinking and what constitutes proof, even if not so much about audio.

--Ethan

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Fear is the by-product of a lack of understanding....I understand fear! I am however trying to overcome it one small bit of knowledge at a time.

John

 

[terryj]

Hi Raul,

I think perhaps, they need to be considered experts, with golden ears, and thus you are not an expert, and must read their dribble since your ears are not as good a theirs, despite the fact that a component with less bass all the sudden has massive bass, clearly this suggests even to a non audiophile that these guys are just entertainers.

Also, I have seen posted pictures of rooms that these guys listen in, and they are not treated, there are reflecting objects everywhere, they look worse than mine by far. And then they say, they can LISTEN THROUGH the room and hear the one component out of the whole chain they are evaluating and its particular strong and weak points, despite the fact that all the other components in the chain are flawed in all kinds of ways as tone controls to start with.

I mean its rediculous, really. I hope you can accept it for entertainment with a smidgen of test results (not comprehensive enough by any means). It's just the game as they play it.

Cheers,

Tom

but not all audiophiles are as open eyed as this. A lot do tend to take it as gospel, despite any evidence to the contrary.

You can easily pick 'em, they tend to use the mantra 'just trust your ears'.

I could be wrong, but there are quite a few like that around here too!

Once that phrase has been used, you know you have entered the realm of belief and-unless just for giggles-there is no point entering into a 'discussion or debate'....as those terms imply a willingness to learn.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

but not all audiophiles are as open eyed as this. A lot do tend to take it as gospel, despite any evidence to the contrary.

You can easily pick 'em, they tend to use the mantra 'just trust your ears'.

I could be wrong, but there are quite a few like that around here too!

Once that phrase has been used, you know you have entered the realm of belief and-unless just for giggles-there is no point entering into a 'discussion or debate'....as those terms imply a willingness to learn.

terryj,

Can you define your post a litte more as I'm not grasping it.

John

 

[terryj]

hi john, terry will do!! no need to be formal eh? haha

Tom has realised, and made the point, that the 'proper' way to approach the reviewing industry is to regard it as nothing more than entertainment, as (at times) there are obvious discrepancies between what is written in the subjective review and what the technical truth is. The example being used is a subjective reported increase in bass vs a measured decrease (I think, did not follow it tooooo closely)

I agree, and have made that point myself earlier and elsewhere in one of these threads.

But, and this is what greases the wheels of the entire industry, there are many readers who rather than taking it as entertainment do, in fact, take it as truth. In order for that clashing of two different 'realities' to not be too disorienting, they need to adopt another mechanism, which can be summarised in many different ways but usually along the lines of

'science does not know everything'

and from there, we can take off in any direction that tickles our fancy with zero need for reference back to science. Any attempt by someone else to refer to what we know about the subject via science can then be dismissed (obviously, as out starting point is science does not know everything) with the rejoinder of 'just trust your ears'.

What they really mean is 'just trust your ears and 'eyes'' as they (natch) will never do a test without knowledge of what they are listening to.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

This is about to turn into an epic battle. Who's got the popcorn?

P

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

This is about to turn into an epic battle. Who's got the popcorn?

P

I like Caramel popcorn.

John

 

[silviajulieta]

That may be and similar exist in many spheres. OTOH, it doesn't factor into my personal considerations.

Dear Kal: Well you should because the AHEE already gave you a responsability that you have to honor with the AHEE community.


Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[silviajulieta]

I don't wanna gowup. Because everytime someone asks me to grow up they want me to abandon what I know to be true. With respect to" not getting it,
' Right bact at you."

Dear Gregadd: +++++++++ Because everytime someone asks me to grow up they want me to abandon what I know to be true..+++++++++++++++++

please let me add: till you learn something different! I think that till today no one in the AHEE is the owner absolute owner of the TRUE.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[silviajulieta]

Hi Raul,

I think perhaps, they need to be considered experts, with golden ears, and thus you are not an expert, and must read their dribble since your ears are not as good a theirs, despite the fact that a component with less bass all the sudden has massive bass, clearly this suggests even to a non audiophile that these guys are just entertainers.

Also, I have seen posted pictures of rooms that these guys listen in, and they are not treated, there are reflecting objects everywhere, they look worse than mine by far. And then they say, they can LISTEN THROUGH the room and hear the one component out of the whole chain they are evaluating and its particular strong and weak points, despite the fact that all the other components in the chain are flawed in all kinds of ways as tone controls to start with.

I mean its rediculous, really. I hope you can accept it for entertainment with a smidgen of test results (not comprehensive enough by any means). It's just the game as they play it.

Cheers,

Tom

Dear Tom: Yes we have to accept like an " enterntainment " but I'm worried on what Terryj posted and that I was thinking on it many times:

++++ but not all audiophiles are as open eyed as this. A lot do tend to take it as gospel, despite any evidence to the contrary. ++++++++++

here it is where these magazyne people made so much harm to the whole AHEE. This part is the bad part of the AHEE and some way or the other we have to talk about for other people can be aware on the subject. These reviewers ( almost all regarding where they come from. ) take advantage on the good faith of we audio readers/customers and take advantage too of our sometimes low knowledge.
What they do IMHO is the worst kind of corruption we can find in the AHEE.

I always said that be a proffesional audio HE reviewer is a great responsability especially with we readers/audio customers and almost none of them I " know " accept and promote that high responsability, this is one of the factors why the HE is almost stagnant/standstill.

Sooner or latter the AHEE expel/eject those bad/wrong reviewers from the AHEE, it is only a fact of time: if not take a look of today Stereophile number of pages in each month publication and number of reviewers against Stereophile of 15+ years ago, they are in a free fall with no " brake " that could save them if they don't change in favor of the AHEE.

We are part of that AHEE and a very important part because we audio customers are the ones that put our money big money for the AHEE can survive.

Now, we all are in the same ship: why those reviewers, manufacturers, audio distributors and the like can't row/toil in the best customer direction? why? what impede they do it? can we customers help to change the " direction "?

Here are some of those reviewers, then I'm asking you and you and you! this is an opportunity to all of us to support/reinforce the AHEE before comes a collapse.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

 

[terryj]

Brilliant comeback.

OTOH I represent many people who have succumbed to societies devices designed to make them feel ecstatic. They are usually temporary and often disastrous. I can think of many good ways to achieve euphoria;one of which would be to listen to my truly musical system.

Hi greg, needed to remember which thread this was in to be able to answer you! sorry for the late reply, was not being rude.

TBH not exactly sure where you were going with the societal deivces, but no matter.

I guess what I was picking up on (and could have misconstrued you) was this line of yours earlier

That includes making it sound "pleasant." Yes a bad recording manipulated to sound pleasant is still bad.

I took that to mean something like 'being able to maniuplate the signal in your system to change the character of the recording' or somesuch. Don't know if you can with your system, but I certainly can with mine, very easily.

Excellent examples abound with recordings from the eighties. (what was it with the monitors used at the time???!!) Oftenr very bass shy, and terribly toppy.

Which is a crying shame if you like some of the music from that era eh?

Now, as the whole intent of listening to music is to enjoy it, I have NO problem in the slightest in manipulating the signal in such a way so it increases that enjoymeny. (increase the bass, decrease the treble yada yada, ie 'salt to taste') Yes, there are limitations to that, it would be much better if it were well recorded in the first place...but it wasn't.

So, if I can turn music I enjoy from (virtually) unlistenable to enjoyable, how can this possibly apply?? Yes a bad recording manipulated to sound pleasant is still bad.

I often get the idea that a 'true audiophile' (tm haha) revels in the masochistic side of the hobby, 'purism for purism's sake'. (is that a word??)

'Man, this sounds **** but by GOD I am gonna sit hear and listen to it because that is the 'true audiophile' (tm) way'.

See? The 'pure signal path' philosophy.

Me?? nahh, if I need to make it sound enjoyable to ME.

Else, we end up buying music wiuth the sole criteria that it is 'well recorded'.

All that wanky oh so precious jazz stuff...ugghh. (completely fine if that IS what you like, then lucky you, well recorded AND what you like to listen to).

Anyway, that was kinda the concept I was addressing, and as I said I may have got you wrong.

 

[Robh3606]

No most audiophiles just don't care. Leave it to the engineers to argue about the details.

Hello Myles

Well that's not good. The devil is in the details. What separates a really good sounding system from the norm is in the details. So what are you saying that the average audiophile is blindly making component changes looking for that specific sound because of the simple fact that they don't know the basics so the systems they have are not optimized to sound their best. They don't recognize speaker and room placement issues for what they are?? They have no understanding of the engineering so they are hopelessly lost essentially guessing what's going to work and what won't??

Rob

 

[Robh3606]

Hello Terry

Now, as the whole intent of listening to music is to enjoy it, I have NO problem in the slightest in manipulating the signal in such a way so it increases that enjoymeny. (increase the bass, decrease the treble yada yada, ie 'salt to taste') Yes, there are limitations to that, it would be much better if it were well recorded in the first place...but it wasn't.

Well it depends on your point of view. I am a set and forget guy. I have my "house curve" that I use and that's about it. If it's a lousy recording well then it's a lousy recording. Just because it's lousy recording doesn't prevent me from enjoying the music as long as I like it. If I don't like it I won't listen to it. I could care less how well recorded it is.

Rob

 

[terryj]

Hello Terry
Well it depends on your point of view. I am a set and forget guy. I have my "house curve" that I use and that's about it. If it's a lousy recording well then it's a lousy recording. Just because it's lousy recording doesn't prevent me from enjoying the music as long as I like it. If I don't like it I won't listen to it. I could care less how well recorded it is.

Rob

hi rob

no probs about your viewpoint. You at least have a house curve of your own choosing tho. salting to taste, no harm or shame in any of that.

some may not have the ability to 'alter the recording as needed' (or indeed set a house curve), so none of that applies to them, you got whatchya got. I only questioned that it was 'necessarily bad' is all, given enjoyment is the ultimate goal.

 

[Robh3606]

given enjoyment is the ultimate goal.

Hello Terry

Yeah that really is the point. I think it's odd, in some ways, the discussions that come up. We have our own little imaginary lines in the sand we won't cross and many times we are quick to jump on those that do. We are all in this for fun or we wouldn't be here. It's fun debating our diferences but the bottom line is we are all here for the same thing.

Rob

 

[jazdoc]

OK, asbestos gear is on, so I'll wade in now...

To paraphrase Warren Buffett, 'measurements in audio are there to serve you, not guide you'. I don't know anyone who could rationally assemble a satisfying system blinded to everything but a set of measurements. OTOH, blinded to everything except how a component sounds within a well-known (i.e. your) system should lead to satisfying results.

I'm not saying that measurements don't have any utility. For example, in guiding speaker placement, room treatments or room design. Obviously manufacturers and designers need measurements for internal quality control and product development. However, for the end consumer, I believe your ears should be your guide, limited of course by the predetermined measurement of your budget.

 

[terryj]

Hello Terry

Yeah that really is the point. I think it's odd, in some ways, the discussions that come up. We have our own little imaginary lines in the sand we won't cross and many times we are quick to jump on those that do. We are all in this for fun or we wouldn't be here. It's fun debating our diferences but the bottom line is we are all here for the same thing.

Rob

Excellent point!! This fascinates me too.

As you say, for all the 'arguing' we can have, it is a matter of degree. What is normal practice to you may be a tweak to me, and to the next guy is insane.

Many times that I have tried to make that point by giving the most out there example I can think of (a la peter belt and the 'advanced audiophile' web site...gotta love the name eh?) and sure enough, someone will come along and say 'yeah I do that'. And I only chose that because I thought 'surely THIS is wacky enough that we can all agree on it'.

Nope.

It would do all of us good to recognise your point, we all have our limits, it's only that the limits are different for each of us.

 

[Alan Sircom]

Dear Tomelex: Yes I know that but why is so difficult to make money in a honest way with out use wrong and deliberate corrupted information? why a magazyne that we paid for it think we don't " read " or understand what they writed? why can they think that are doing a favor to products like the Vitus one? why even could they think are working in honest way and helping the manufacturers and helping the customers? . Or maybe they not even " think " about?

Yes it is an enterntaiment and yes it is my privilege and " culprit " buy/bought it or not. Not all is wrong/bad in the AHEE or in this kind of magazynes, this part is part of the trade offs we accept when we want that kind of " entertainment " with the good information we can find there.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

I don't know the Vitus product at all, but a +1.5dB lift at 20kHz is not necessarily going to substantially add or detract from the overall audio performance. It may be that the sound of the Vitus is outstanding and that the 20kHz lift is effectively inaudible, unless you happen to be a cloistered teenager. Such an anomaly in performance - if found in measurement - should be observed and recorded in the measured performance section (as it patently has been), but if it doesn't manifest in the listening test, should it influence the conclusion of that part of the review?

The question, "if other companies can stick to the RIAA curve, why can't Vitus?" is deserving of an answer, but it may ultimately be an academic answer to an academic question given the point where the deviation from the RIAA curve occurs.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I don't know anyone who could rationally assemble a satisfying system blinded to everything but a set of measurements.

A digital system? Up to, but not including transducers, that wouldn't be much of a challenge, given the right measurements. Recordings, transducers and rooms are, of course, the wild cards. Between the two ends the technology is mature and the differences between competently designed, properly matched components are incremental at best. Hard to admit if you've spent thousands on the upgrade path; impossible to deny if you're looking at the facts, though I'm sure a plethora of protests and denials are on their way, complete with the usual ad hominem epithets about listening to charts and graphs, etc.

P

 

[silviajulieta]

I don't know the Vitus product at all, but a +1.5dB lift at 20kHz is not necessarily going to substantially add or detract from the overall audio performance. It may be that the sound of the Vitus is outstanding and that the 20kHz lift is effectively inaudible, unless you happen to be a cloistered teenager. Such an anomaly in performance - if found in measurement - should be observed and recorded in the measured performance section (as it patently has been), but if it doesn't manifest in the listening test, should it influence the conclusion of that part of the review?

The question, "if other companies can stick to the RIAA curve, why can't Vitus?" is deserving of an answer, but it may ultimately be an academic answer to an academic question given the point where the deviation from the RIAA curve occurs.

Dear Alan Sircom: I can see that you made a mistake in what you read about the Vitus phono stage because according to the JA measurements it has a frequency deviation that begin at around 500 hz and goes down to -1.5db at 20 hz not 20 khz. So it happen in a very important frequency range where our ears are extremely sensitive.

Deviations in the RIAA eq. curve normally affect 2.5-3 music octaves and we can hear this as colorations/distortions that put us away from the recording.

The RIAA standard is IMHO not only a " figure " but a very delicate process that must be accurate ( especialyy in a 60K unit design. ) because it has to mimic ( inverse. ) the RIAA recording process for we can ( at least ) begin nearest to the recording during playback. Adding the less and loosing the less is IMHO the name of the game to high quality performance in audio systems.

Now other than the gain the most important target in a phono stage design is the inverse RIAA eq. process. This is why exist a phono stage unit and no other unit can make that critical job. This IMHO is the must important target in a phono stage design.

I think that it is time to give the precise importance to audio subjects like the RIAA process that many times we are diminished or don't care enough about. The RIAA eq- deviation is IMHO an important measure/spec that is convenient that we analog customers need to understand/familiarise with.

Alan, the kind of RIAA frequency deviation that shows the Vitus design is something that IMHO only a deaf person can't discern about. But in the other side the accuracy that the Vitus has not is very important for us customers that I think deserve a lot more for 60K in a stand alone Phono Stage unit, for that kind of money ( at least me. ) you should ask for the " perfection ".

Btw, I don't have any doubt that in the Stereophile October volume the Vitus will be there as Class A+ or at least Class A and you know what?: everybody be happy because of that!!!. This is another example of the bad and wrong part of the AHEE that makes a lot of harm to all of us.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.