Will power amps make an audible difference?

[BlueFox]

Yes you are confused. You need to spend more time reading and researching and then start asking questions.

 

[Jacob]

Yes you are confused. You need to spend more time reading and researching and then start asking questions.

Why are you getting upset with me? I'm trying to understand what you wrote. "More detail and clarity" even at lower volumes. Lots of conflicting information based on what I've read so far.

All I asked is for you to explain how that works. If you can't, then so be it.

 

[thedudeabides]

Yes you are confused. You need to spend more time reading and researching and then start asking questions.

Great way to encourage new members to visit this site more often. Good job.

Unfortunate that you have no patience for the "less enlightened".

My apologies Jacob.

 

[Atmasphere]

I'm confused. So more power at lower volumes won't improve sound but another guy is saying it will result in clearer sound and more detail. At lower volumes. I'm just in the middle here, so I'm not sure who is correct here.

Its perfectly understandable!

I suggest you re-read my prior post.

What we are talking about is resolution. If an amplifier is operating in an area of high distortion, its resolution will not be as good. Since this can happen at lower power levels as well as higher power levels, it follows that the amp should be the correct power level with your speaker such that its usually operated at power levels above where it gets in trouble, yet the speaker demands and your listening habits are not also demanding too much of the amp. Fortunately this window is rather wide.

 

[RayDunzl]

I'm confused. So more power at lower volumes won't improve sound but another guy is saying it will result in clearer sound and more detail. At lower volumes. I'm just in the middle here, so I'm not sure who is correct here.

It depends.

(that's the fallback answer)

I run a powerful amp at fairly low levels. It exceeded my expectations (real or imagined).

The previous amplifier was nearly as powerful, so that's not the whole story.

 

[BlueFox]

Why are you getting upset with me? I'm trying to understand what you wrote. "More detail and clarity" even at lower volumes. Lots of conflicting information based on what I've read so far.

All I asked is for you to explain how that works. If you can't, then so be it.

Sorry about the previous answer. You need to understand that AVRs do not produce the power per channel they are rated at. The lower level the AVR is then the worse the ratings are. You need to understand that there are times that a brief spike in the soundtrack, or music, will require much more power to accurately reproduce than the AVR is capable of providing. A good power amp will handle these peak power situations much, much better than the AVR. Also, what I answered first was based on actual experience, not speculation as to what might occur.

 

[DonH50]

Its perfectly understandable!

I suggest you re-read my prior post.

What we are talking about is resolution. If an amplifier is operating in an area of high distortion, its resolution will not be as good. Since this can happen at lower power levels as well as higher power levels, it follows that the amp should be the correct power level with your speaker such that its usually operated at power levels above where it gets in trouble, yet the speaker demands and your listening habits are not also demanding too much of the amp. Fortunately this window is rather wide.

Most amps are biased AB so crossover distortion is minimized, are you talking about something else?

One problem with most THD plots in reviews is that they are actually SINAD so the noise floor makes the curves rise at low frequency. It is hard to separate the noise so as the signal gets small noise becomes more significant and many (most?) plots reflect this by showing higher THD at lower frequencies.

Knowing you, at least via your posts and website, I am missing your basis. Probably due to working 24/7 the past few weeks.

 

[thedudeabides]

Interesting to see if Jacob responds to this level of tech / microscopic analysis. My sense is that he doesn't.

My gut. Try a couple of options with return options so he can hear the differences. Suggest trying a Parasound amp from Audio Advisors and perhaps another alternative.

And in the end, the only person that needs to be happy with Jacob's system is Jacob.

 

[BlueFox]

Interesting to see if Jacob responds to this level of tech / microscopic analysis. My sense is that he doesn't.

This is the truth. These guys are way over thinking/explaining the issue. The answer is if the AVR has preamp outputs then get an external multichannel amp. Otherwise get a pre/pro and a multichannel amp. As a general rule of thumb try to have at least 200 watts per channel. Personally, I have 800 watts per channel, and I rarely play it loud. I am more interested in the sound of leaves rustling in the wind, and other nuances of sound in a movie.

 

[DaveyF]

I think it would be very helpful if there was an understanding as to what Jacob plans on using his gear for...is it primarily home theater, or is it primarily for a two channel system only for music? Some of the posts above would indicate that the poster believes that Jacob is using a home theater set-up. I am not under that impression....but perhaps Jacob could clarify this question.

 

[BlueFox]

Good point, but whether for music or HT, a separate amp will smoke the AVR.

I use mine for both, and with music the power does come in handy.

 

[Jacob]

Sorry about the previous answer. You need to understand that AVRs do not produce the power per channel they are rated at. The lower level the AVR is then the worse the ratings are. You need to understand that there are times that a brief spike in the soundtrack, or music, will require much more power to accurately reproduce than the AVR is capable of providing. A good power amp will handle these peak power situations much, much better than the AVR. Also, what I answered first was based on actual experience, not speculation as to what might occur.

As I explained to you earlier, I don't listen loud. I also use a subwoofer for movies. So I'm not sure if these "peak power" situations are that relevant in my case. What do you think? You say that a brief spike will require much more power than the AVR is capable of providing, but doesn't that depend on the AVR? And the volumes you listen at? It sounds like a whole lot of speculating going on here.

 

[Purite Audio]

Jacob see if you can borrow a really powerful amp, a design whose output ( almost) doubles as impedance halves, compare it and your current amp, if there is no difference, then no need to change anything.
Keith.

 

[Atmasphere]

Most amps are biased AB so crossover distortion is minimized, are you talking about something else?

One problem with most THD plots in reviews is that they are actually SINAD so the noise floor makes the curves rise at low frequency. It is hard to separate the noise so as the signal gets small noise becomes more significant and many (most?) plots reflect this by showing higher THD at lower frequencies.

Knowing you, at least via your posts and website, I am missing your basis. Probably due to working 24/7 the past few weeks.

If you look at the distortion of an SET, with most of them it decreases linearly towards unmeasurable as power is decreased. With most push-pull amps this is not the case. As the amp power falls off, one of the areas that is problematic is that the feedback becomes inoperable right around the crossover point. So the amp can make distortion at that point and the feedback can't correct it. This is audible (as well as measurable) and is why you can't just throw power at it and call it good, although as I mentioned in my post the window you have to work with here is pretty wide.

 

[scouter]

Bud,
I don't think he's going to blow a S5 tweeter Jacob, I'd download AudioTools and check the dB that you are listening to. You may be surprised at the level you get, especially when you move to a lower distortion amp or receiver. I've thought I was listening to 60 db, when I checked I was listening to 75 with peaks of 100. Big difference in the sound in reproducing those swings IMHO. Anyway, fun hobby, and you are on the right track in getting advice form WBT forum. I've learned quite a bit from members that improved my system.

As I explained to you earlier, I don't listen loud. I also use a subwoofer for movies. So I'm not sure if these "peak power" situations are that relevant in my case. What do you think? You say that a brief spike will require much more power than the AVR is capable of providing, but doesn't that depend on the AVR? And the volumes you listen at? It sounds like a whole lot of speculating going on here.

 

[BlueFox]

LOL. Neither will I, again.

 

[scouter]

LOL. Neither will I, again.

You're a WBF and Magico hero!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Jacob see if you can borrow a really powerful amp, a design whose output ( almost) doubles as impedance halves, compare it and your current amp, if there is no difference, then no need to change anything.
Keith.

What Keith said. Jacob, this rabbit hole is deep, and the Alice in here definitely took the pill that makes her think she's larger than life. Your friends think your system will sound better with a separate amp. Test that theory in practice, in your system, in your room. And take most of what you read around here with a grain of salt. You're talking about upgrading an Onkyo AV receiver, and you're talking to guys with five and six figure systems. I'm not saying their systems don't sound good, I'm sure some of them are great, but they're in another league, and in that league it has as much to do with luxury status as it does with actual performance. Test this out for yourself.

Tim

Tim

 

[DonH50]

If you look at the distortion of an SET, with most of them it decreases linearly towards unmeasurable as power is decreased. With most push-pull amps this is not the case. As the amp power falls off, one of the areas that is problematic is that the feedback becomes inoperable right around the crossover point. So the amp can make distortion at that point and the feedback can't correct it. This is audible (as well as measurable) and is why you can't just throw power at it and call it good, although as I mentioned in my post the window you have to work with here is pretty wide.

Hmmm... I do not follow, does not match my design experience, but this is not the thread to discuss.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

What Keith said. Jacob, this rabbit hole is deep, and the Alice in here definitely took the pill that makes her think she's larger than life. Your friends think your system will sound better with a separate amp. Test that theory in practice, in your system, in your room. And take most of what you read around here with a grain of salt. You're talking about upgrading an Onkyo AV receiver, and you're talking to guys with five and six figure systems. I'm not saying their systems don't sound good, I'm sure some of them are great, but they're in another league, and in that league it has as much to do with luxury status as it does with actual performance. Test this out for yourself.

Tim

Tim