Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[Mike Lavigne]

my view is that a solid grounded rack (without engineered-in resonance reducing compliance) is not really a tweak any more than your floor or chair is a tweak. it's just a rack; a piece of furniture. but a rack with designed in resonance attenuation becomes a tweak. spikes on the legs of the rack are not tweaks. compliance footers for the rack legs would be tweaks.

and that gear footers or shelves that are intended to attenuate resonance are tweaks.

essentially treatment for that basic rack that improves performance would be tweaks.

I know this is just semantics, but it is helpful to be able to understand the meaning intended in our postings. and that is what I mean when I use the word tweaks.

 

[microstrip]

my view is that a solid grounded rack (without engineered-in resonance reducing compliance) is not really a tweak any more than your floor or chair is a tweak. it's just a rack; a piece of furniture. but a rack with designed in resonance attenuation becomes a tweak. spikes on the legs of the rack are not tweaks. compliance footers for the rack legs would be tweaks.

and that gear footers or shelves that are intended to attenuate resonance are tweaks.

essentially treatment for that basic rack that improves performance would be tweaks.

I know this is just semantics, but it is helpful to be able to understand the meaning intended in our postings. and that is what I mean when I use the word tweaks.

I would consider that a tweak denotes an intention to change the sound attributes and perceive the differences. A "tweak" is just something we use "to tweak" our systems. The original idea of tweak was something inexpensive and non orthodox that would bring us an improvement in sound quality. However as the toys become more expensive we loose the capability to separate them from equipment.

IMHO in order to be a tweak, the component must work mainly by audio voodoo - sometimes this means some kind of advanced technology that no one can correlate scientifically with the changes in sound quality.

 

[PeterA]

Imo it needs to be kept simple. Just accept it all is a tweak, and say which is better and which is not, which is more colored and which is not, just that if you are commenting treat it with the same diligence and respect of compares and reporting that you treat your arms, carts, amps, etc. Don't say those don't color, racks don't, footers do

Ked, I certainly don't mean to say or imply that components don't color the sound. I'm not aware that I did write that anywhere. We are trying to define the distinction between what is a "tweak" and what is not a "tweak". But like with many things in audio, people are willing to argue about it.

I think people will contend correctly that an AS2000 or a pair of Wilson XLFs is not a tweak.

 

[Uk Paul]

I would consider that a tweak denotes an intention to change the sound attributes and perceive the differences. A "tweak" is just something we use "to tweak" our systems. The original idea of tweak was something inexpensive and non orthodox that would bring us an improvement in sound quality. However as the toys become more expensive we loose the capability to separate them from equipment.

IMHO in order to be a tweak, the component must work mainly by audio voodoo - sometimes this means some kind of advanced technology that no one can correlate scientifically with the changes in sound quality.

My perception too..

Power, supports and cables are not in this category as far as I'm concerned..

 

[spiritofmusic]

I would be absolutely fascinated to see an uber uber system configured with e.g. tt on a wooden crate or pile of magazines (obv level, but as non audiophile level as you can get), cheapo Tandy power cords, cheap as chips multi way sockets off the plug next to the jacuzzi, fridge or washer drier, stock fuses.

 

[bonzo75]

You did mention you are headed towards neutral sound, Marc, so maybe you will have all that.

 

[spiritofmusic]

My point Ked is that none of the religiously anti tweaks guys will go this far. Even Dave w his "nothing" rack, well it may not have the something that stuff like HRS, GPA does, but it obviously has "something more" than a really sturdy coffee table or level pile of magazines.

My non audiophile friends say things like "so high end gear costs HOW much? And STILL needs extra care?"

Surely a brilliantly engineered tt like AF1 should have sufficient vibration control to sound just great on a pile of Stereophile mags? Surely a cost no object amp like Dag Relentless should sound peachy w power cords you can buy for 99 cents? Surely a loudspeaker like Arrakis should be great w the cheapest spkr cable out there?

For me I've been driven to tweak more because I'm a fan of my basic sound and it's specific character, but have wanted more differences btwn recordings. I'm much closer to that now.

 

[bonzo75]

Is that through moving from burmester to Westwick power, or through the various Sablon cable upgrades, or symposium and stacore isolation?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Are you genuinely interested Ked, or just jaded curiosity, because you've always criticised my choices here.

FYI, Burmester opened up detail and lower noise when compared to straight out of the mains, but severely restricted dynamics.

Airlink and then Westwick balanced power kept the Burmester advantages, and eliminated it's shortcomings, w after midnight sound 24/7, the Westwick also tightening and extending bass.

Sablon cables took the low noise floor of my old Audience AU24 cables, and maxxed out tonal and timbral density and palpability.

Stacore was a specific solution for my tt to enable me to use it on the floor, but has had the added invaluable benefit of supercharging my lp playback to give it the edge over my cdp.

In the beginning w tweaks I'm not sure I was paying attention to neutrality when finding I liked them, but now this is my aim, and when a tweak imposes a presentation, even if I like it, I has to pass the "does each recording REALLY sound individual and of itself" and fails if it's generating a "house sound".

 

[bonzo75]

Are you genuinely interested Ked, or just jaded curiosity, because you've always criticised my choices here.

FYI, Burmester opened up detail and lower noise when compared to straight out of the mains, but severely restricted dynamics.

Airlink and then Westwick balanced power kept the Burmester advantages, and eliminated it's shortcomings, w after midnight sound 24/7, the Westwick also tightening and extending bass.

Sablon cables took the low noise floor of my old Audience AU24 cables, and maxxed out tonal and timbral density and palpability.

Stacore was a specific solution for my tt to enable me to use it on the floor, but has had the added invaluable benefit of supercharging my lp playback to give it the edge over my cdp.

In the beginning w tweaks I'm not sure I was paying attention to neutrality when finding I liked them, but now this is my aim, and when a tweak imposes a presentation, even if I like it, I has to pass the "does each recording REALLY sound individual and of itself" and fails if it's generating a "house sound".

I have never criticised your choices Marc, just the ratio of your spend on these tweaks to actual components

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well, you'll be glad to know 100% of future spend is going on new spkrs, cold wind of Brexit not withstanding. Install of RevOPods and Panzerholz under my Zus brings my tweaks spend to a natural conclusion.

Maxxing my listening environment w the naturally improved acoustics of the new room over the old, and eeking out as much potential from my system w voyage into balanced power, lines, cables and isolation, has both revealed fully what I like about my sound, and also revealed it's limits and limitations.

Now new spkrs are the order of the day, especially as I fully dive into a stackful more classical lps.

 

[KeithR]

Most people go down the tweak road and start even tweaking the tweaks and don’t have a clue what they are doing when they are fully tweaked up.

I’d also venture to say > half of the effects are fantasy or non-neutral.

I generally agree with Ddk’s positions on this subject. Take all of it out and start over.

 

[spiritofmusic]

So Keith, you'll be popping your Bardo on a sturdy Ikea coffee table sometime soon? Let us know how much your current specialist support is unneeded, thanks

 

[spiritofmusic]

And lets all tell MikeL how much his Troy, Taiko Tana, Entreq, Zeels, are fantasy.

 

[bonzo75]

Most people go down the tweak road and start even tweaking the tweaks and don’t have a clue what they are doing when they are fully tweaked up.

I’d also venture to say > half of the effects are fantasy or non-neutral.

I generally agree with Ddk’s positions on this subject. Take all of it out and start over.

Sure, but even then you will have to go with an Ikea rack to detweak. Starting all over always helps, and that is not because of tweaks. We start building systems and getting locked in with upgrades and dealers much before we start learning what's what. Imagine the people who have gone in big cone direction after they hear a good horn

 

[spiritofmusic]

And if what I heard at Barry's, w his well burnt in Aqua Formula XHD thru SGM streamer and AG Duos is anything to go by, his recent Sablon Bocchino tweaks have masterfully opened up transparency and neutrality.

The only fantasy here is the fantasy of trying to achieve such an exemplary sound.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, my next spkr is going to be a horn. Don't know which one, but that's what I've gravitated twds. To be at an immediate advantage w the tweaks already in my system.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Keith, I have taken it all out. And put it all back in.

My sound is colder w standard 99 cents power cords going straight into the wall, bypassing balanced.

My sound is less dimensional (just a smidge) w Entreq disconnected.

My tt obviously can't easily be A/Bd sans Stacore, just take my word for it
that the 6 months I had the tt sited elsewhere previously bears no comparison.

My Zus on Revopods/Panzerholz truly tell me what's good on discs, and what's bad, and going back to stock spikes reintroduces homogenous haziness.

GIKs in the room have tightened focus, that loosens when they're out.

I have no argument w those who say my money was better spent on better gear, esp spkrs.

But I'll argue against you that tweaks effects are all in the mind.

You might as well say that yr Bardo isn't any better than the $200 DD JVC tt I was running in 1985. Audiophile bling is also a fantasy.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Horns as a speaker type may well be one of the most context specific to work with in terms of system improvements. Possibly because they often seem to be most wholly characteristic in nature and trade in some ways on this uniqueness of character and therefore anything that may homogenise their character at all may work against one of their principal strengths.

Many things that work traditionally much more obviously and or more positively in varying degrees with either my Magnepan 20.7s or Harby 40.2s just defy holistic improvements when then in use with my Pap Horns... while still early days this has also certainly this has been the clear case on the other horns that I have spent time with.

Both the Animas and my Pureaudioproject horns respond very differently to mods and are much more individual in results and certainly not typical in response to many of the more typical audiophile approaches to system refinement. That is why I love their challenge. The challenge is perhaps not to muck them up trying to do too many things to them.

One thing I have found as potentially something of a guide is that the quality and character of the source seems even more critical with them possibly because the reveal of microdynamics and expression of timbre combined with holistic nature in perception with horns makes then the whole characters of the components come through more evidently rather than separating every criteria of sound for a more fragmented appreciation of any individual element. They seem to stand against and defy analysis in some ways. Sometimes the less is more approach can then have some real value in application here.

 

[jeff1225]

So Keith, you'll be popping your Bardo on a sturdy Ikea coffee table sometime soon? Let us know how much your current specialist support is unneeded, thanks

Racks are not really a tweak are they? Even DDK seems to have very substantial racks for his system.