Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[bonzo75]

Nooooo! don't let me know about the faults/shortcomings of these pressings The performances are so good, I completely forget about the pressings. They are not bad if you do not compare them. As long as I do not hear the better first pressings, I will stay sane and not spend thousands of dollars on them... (feels the slippery slope)

Point is my Lampi can beat an analog set up playing a testament. So I don't see the point of keeping a testament. I am not planning to spend 5k on the original, but for all performances, there are good alternatives at (relatively) lower prices. People who know them won't disclose them though because prices of LPs shoot up very fast. But just like with gear, pressings are a different hobby where you can compare and find out what is good, what is bad, what is value, etc

 

[spiritofmusic]

Alex and Madfloyd, I'm proved to be a bit hasty in proclaiming the Classic Quiex reissues of Genesis as superior.

Great in terms of low noise, but yes, smoothed out and lacking dynamics.

Indeed I'm finding that expensive first pressings, so-called superior reissues, are a bit of a crap shoot. Even my favoured Japanese pressings can sound like they've been mixed a little differently.

I realise the classical world is even more of a snakes' pit when it comes to pricey pressings.

 

[morricab]

In absence of specs I can’t tell you cutoff frequencies of this speaker but in room response without the subs is probably in the mid 30’s. There’s no possibility of relocation in this space choice is muddied sound or a very clear one with a little missing foundation in the very low frequencies.

david

Sorry David, I don’t buy this and sounds like BS to me. No way that horn gets into the 30s. It would need to be more than 3 meters long! Only if it is also somehow reflex loaded would it get close to what you say.

 

[ddk]

Sorry David, I don’t buy this and sounds like BS to me. No way that horn gets into the 30s. It would need to be more than 3 meters long! Only if it is also somehow reflex loaded would it get close to what you say.

I said in room response! Different from horn specs.

david

 

[MadFloyd]

I have two Kogans from ERC and based on the recording quality alone feel I overpaid at 300 pounds. To each their own I suppose.

 

[morricab]

David, this is exactly what my experience was when Jim Smith and I tried to integrate two JL Audio F110 subs with my Magico Mini II. That was the choice we had and we both preferred the very clear sound with a little missing bass foundation. I think the Mini IIs went down to about mid 30's in my room as well. The subs just muddied up the sound.

The same thing happened a few years later when Al M. and I tried to integrate a Revel sub with my Mini IIs.

It’s c

I said in room response! Different from horn specs.

david

From a 110hz horn??? Nope don’t buy that either. I have backloaded 2.8 meter horns that don’t get that low in room, so no way a 110hz horn will get much below 70-80hz in room. It will give you a hint of bass...no more. Maybe the mid bass punch is enough to allow your brain to fill in the rest but a measurement will show easily it’s not getting there. Again, if there is some kind of additional loading (reflex etc.) then probably bass horns would optional. My understanding of the Gamma is that bass horns are not optional.

I have heard Gamma with bass turned way down and it was thin and bright...with them off could only be worse.

 

[bonzo75]

I have two Kogans from ERC and based on the recording quality alone feel I overpaid at 300 pounds. To each their own I suppose.

ERC is not the same as an ED1.

But that's true, the Kogan master itself is not the best, so Kogan price is high mainly due to rarity of a great performance.

When it comes to LPs, some are priced high for great performance, some for great sonics, and some for a cross between the two. And some are good value as the cross between the two.

 

[ddk]

It’s c

From a 110hz horn??? Nope don’t buy that either. I have backloaded 2.8 meter horns that don’t get that low in room, so no way a 110hz horn will get much below 70-80hz in room. It will give you a hint of bass...no more. Maybe the mid bass punch is enough to allow your brain to fill in the rest but a measurement will show easily it’s not getting there. Again, if there is some kind of additional loading (reflex etc.) then probably bass horns would optional. My understanding of the Gamma is that bass horns are not optional.

I have heard Gamma with bass turned way down and it was thin and bright...with them off could only be worse.

Take a flight and listen for yourself Brad and then tell me if you only hear down to 110hz. I don't know anything about the Cessaro and I have no specs we went with what we can hear. The only thing we got with woofers in was a bit more foundation like a sub but it muddied everything up at even the lowest setting. Yes, the bass can use some extension but as things are it's a choice between clarity or mud.

david

 

[jeff1225]

About the bass horns of my speaker system. Pls just get over it, it will remain mysterious to you guys because you were never in my room. The corssover can be adjust from 50hz upto I dont know where 150hz maybe? I had it at 130 hz before ddk and I decided to take them off altogether.

The main reason for taking the bass horns off the $300,000 speaker system only could come from sound. Again you guys were not in the room to hear the trade off and final result. Of course I know what I miss. It is exactly like ddk said. I lost some sense of boundary and majesticness that my bass horn used to provide. But the sound I have now still frequently made Bonzo jumped of the listening seat and did the silly dance to Orchestra pieces. He only listened to classical except for one jazz the General sent me. If he listened to my kind of music like ddk did, he would fully understand and totally backed up the decision ddk and I made.

Why didnt I try moving adjusting bass horns in my room before taking them off? The answer is this is not a dedicated listening room where I can do or change any configuration of the room. It is an office space. My staffs come in and out all the time. Moving my speaker system around is limited by its space, door entrance, practicality of people having meeting in my room. Ralph the designer of Cessaro and I know full well this speaker system could do a lot more if I have a 7m x 9m size room that I could move things however I want. Then I will really hear its full range at its potential.

And of course, ddk said the system could go way beyond if I changed to Lamm..hahaha .

Kind regards,
Tang

Yes Tang we're waiting patiently for the addition of Lamm amps

 

[ddk]

It’s c

From a 110hz horn??? Nope don’t buy that either. I have backloaded 2.8 meter horns that don’t get that low in room, so no way a 110hz horn will get much below 70-80hz in room. It will give you a hint of bass...no more. Maybe the mid bass punch is enough to allow your brain to fill in the rest but a measurement will show easily it’s not getting there. Again, if there is some kind of additional loading (reflex etc.) then probably bass horns would optional. My understanding of the Gamma is that bass horns are not optional.

I have heard Gamma with bass turned way down and it was thin and bright...with them off could only be worse.

I looked all over the Cessaro site and couldn't find any specs where did you see the 110hz? Any specs on the woofers anywhere besides amp wattage to piece this mystery together?

david

 

[kodomo]

A tractrix horn with that mouth diameter says that it has a 110hz cutoff

 

[kodomo]

Tang says he defeated the crossover so most probably the mid bass woofers act as direct radiators and fill the low end. It would be at least 6db lower around 90hz and falling gently

 

[ddk]

A tractrix horn with that mouth diameter says that it has a 110hz cutoff

So you don't have the speaker's specs and you're just going off assumptions with basic math for what you think is the horn's mouth on this speaker, right?

Do you have specs or measurements of the Cessaro bass boxes to know what they really are or is it just more assumptions? Because I haven't seen any specs anywhere and can't argue one way or another besides what I heard.

david

 

[kodomo]

It is not a secret or something bad. It is a 110hz horn or a very close cf horn. I remember reading it over part time audiophile as 110hz as well. The physics of the horns dictates this, so I can not call it an assumption but an educated guess at the least.
I have also stated that as Tang has defeated the crossover the mid bass woofers are working down to 30-40s but falling gradually from 90hz and sharply from 110 to 90 or around that.
I have listened to Cessaro horns. I have built my own horn system as well as some other horns. Why do you keep pushing the idea that this mid bass or an upper bass horn whichever you call it, can work against physics?
There will be bass especially without the crossover but it will be much lower than it should be.

 

[ddk]

It is not a secret or something bad. It is a 110hz horn or a very close cf horn. I remember reading it over part time audiophile as 110hz as well. The physics of the horns dictates this, so I can not call it an assumption but an educated guess at the least.
I have also stated that as Tang has defeated the crossover the mid bass woofers are working down to 30-40s but falling gradually from 90hz and sharply from 110 to 90 or around that.
I have listened to Cessaro horns. I have built my own horn system as well as some other horns. Why do you keep pushing the idea that this mid bass or an upper bass horn whichever you call it, can work against physics?
There will be bass especially without the crossover but it will be much lower than it should be.

I'm not pushing the idea that anything is working against physics just against the assumption that there's nothing below 110hz in the room and what you think you know about this speaker's in room performance. Tang hasn't defeated the crossovers in the main speaker, the woofer or subwoofer boxes come with built in low pass filter nothing to do with the main speaker and I didn't notice a separate cutoff point for the horns in the digital crossover.

david

 

[ack]

I have now carefully read bonzo's review, and it was another fun read. On the following:

The highs on the AS were amazing, and would extend easily forever, so you could feel the vocalist opening his mouth more, and the voice rising more. If you have every compared a Berning Quadrature or a Spectral to a Vitus or a VTL, other strengths and weaknesses aside, the difference in the AS extension on the highs is like it would be with the Berning or the Spectral.

I perfectly understand what he means by the Spectral highs, but my question is, can we assume Ayon (as set up) is also rendering treble with great energy and articulation?

 

[bonzo75]

The EMT is supposed to be more extended than the Ayon and more nuanced. However higher extension and detail compared to techdas and EMT was also rally easily audible at David's comparing through the same phono. And Tang has played the other two through the EMT as well, he can corroborate

 

[ack]

So can we then say the Ayon amplifiers do treble extremely well?

 

[bonzo75]

Oh you are referring to the amps. No idea. They allow you to differentiate between the treble of the two tables though

 

[morricab]

Take a flight and listen for yourself Brad and then tell me if you only hear down to 110hz. I don't know anything about the Cessaro and I have no specs we went with what we can hear. The only thing we got with woofers in was a bit more foundation like a sub but it muddied everything up at even the lowest setting. Yes, the bass can use some extension but as things are it's a choice between clarity or mud.

david

Don’t need to. Heard them in Germany and with subs on but turned well down. Did not sound remotely full-range then. I have heard many models of Cessaro.