Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[ddk]

David, you're missing the point.

Shit, fake, destructive, poo poo on a stick, way WAY the wrong side of acceptable.

Anyone talking the same way would have been banned before they could even leave a second derogatory post.

This is not a free speech issue, it's a common courtesy one.

I get your schtick, Daiza is poo, Entreq is a scam, rip it out of Christian's setup, my pricey power cord on tt psu is a total waste, active isolation under a tt is an abomination (sorry if I've misquoted you, but you are hyperbolic yself). You are a free speech warrior, and the high end needs a cutting opinion or three.

However, you just sound bitter, and any public service you think you're providing warning us off foo comes across as self satisfied and brutal for the sake of it.
My 2 cents/1.5 pence.

I know you feel compelled to insert yourself in every thread Marc, but why make it personal?
david

 

[spiritofmusic]

Your comment that I feel "compelled" etc betrays that it's indeed you making it personal.

Hey, I've said my piece. Others can agree, disagree, keep quiet. I'm taking it so personally, I don't give a $hit. On a stick, or otherwise.

 

[tima]

Hey, I've said my piece. Others can agree, disagree, keep quiet. I'm taking it so personally, I don't give a $hit. On a stick, or otherwise.

This is not a free speech issue, it's a common courtesy one.

Oh give me a break. It's neither. No need for a tantrum.

Whether you like the Taiko panzerholz product or not, there's been quite a bit of discussion about it in at least two large-ish threads. There are a handful of people including investees, influencers and the manufacturer, or his representative who actively engage on the product here and on at least one other board.

Most of us have no problem with manufacturer participation. I appreciate it. It improves the discussion overall as manufacturers are active contributors to the hobby and learning the hows and whys of their product is educational as well as a check on hearsay and misinformation. Several manufacturers seem obviously to enjoy or at least see benefit in their participation as evidenced by their purchase of advertising.

It strikes me there is something of a delicate balance between respecting manufacture participation on the one hand and commentary on their products on the other. IMO no product of a participant manufacturer inherently accrues some special/higher status solely in virtue of the manufacturer's participation or advertising as compared to products from those who do not participate or advertise.

While it may be a bit more cringeworthy to see negative product comments made basically in the face of the manufacturer or influencers or heavily invested owners/advocates - that's the liability of participation and advocacy. You have to take negative comments with positives. And fwiw, it's all personal - what's the point otherwise? All as long as it doesn't lapse into ad hominem or nastiness about people and stays focused about product, that's the arena as it were.

My take from reading these posts perceives largely the shock in some when faced with a pointed "emperor has no clothes" comment after a few bowlfuls of sweetness and light. I've yet to find a product with universal consensus.

 

[ALF]

My take from reading these posts perceives largely the shock in some when faced with a pointed "emperor has no clothes" comment after a few bowlfuls of sweetness and light. I've yet to find a product with universal consensus.[/QUOTE]

Hi Tim, I have to agree with your comment, regarding David...“emperor has no clothes ”.

Cheers!
ALF

 

[microstrip]

I know you feel compelled to insert yourself in every thread Marc, but why make it personal?
david

I have to agree with you David. This type of summaries misrepresent the original poster ideas, completely change the sense of the debate and hamper the possibility of having an interesting debate on our preferences and reasons behind them.

As people say, please kill the message, not the messenger. I must say I was particularly interested in the message - and yes, debating tweaks needs a very open mind.

 

[howiebrou]

I suggest we get back to the raison d'etre of this thread then. Teasing out the reasons why Tang's system is so bad....

 

[Steve williams]

I believe both sides have made valid points. I knew yesterday when my phone rang off the hook that this was not going to end well no matter what decision I made someone was still going to be angry at me. I believe in fee discourse and taking the good with the bad but this bloomed into something more direct and more personal such that the discourse became nasty. What Tim says is correct but there are indeed flamethrowers that try to keep the mud slinging. When I get up at 0300 to the bathroom and find personal message
comments directed at me and that he wants to keep the argument going makes me think how this has become a no win situation. I did at first think the conversation was polite and civil but then the tone and posture changed of the participants and this became nasty such that it had to stop. i knew the repercussions would be directed at me. They were indeed, even in the middle of the night. Discussing the pros and cons of things should be a sine qua non as long as it is done respectfully and courteously and without expletives. Such was not the case yesterday. Hence my decision to remove the offending posts.

 

[Steve williams]

I have to agree with you David. This type of summaries misrepresent the original poster ideas, completely change the sense of the debate and hamper the possibility of having an interesting debate on our preferences and reasons behind them.

As people say, please kill the message, not the messenger. I must say I was particularly interested in the message - and yes, debating tweaks needs a very open mind.

As I just said I totally agree. However when the tone becomes angry, belligerent and name calling, then I say everyone has missed its purpose

 

[spiritofmusic]

I guess you're referring to me Steve. Sorry to spoil yr 3am bathroom visit. I remember a thread not so long ago that got the co-founder of WBF banned. I don't seem to remember any holding back from you, you were mighty vocal when Masterbuilt cbls were being trashed.

Now? It's just fine to pussy foot around Dave when he uses derogatory terms. Poo on a stick, fake etc.

Fine. I'm one for totally open and uncensored discourse. Let's just make sure that is consistent across all products and topics, from all contributors. Otherwise I'll be left w the distinct impression that it's ok for the big beasts like Dave to get stuff off his chest, but not us lesser mortals.

Btw, I'll keep yr 3am appt free of angst in future from my side Lol.

 

[Steve williams]

Marc

you'll too often seem to make everything about you

I told you that I agreed with you but your comment was that you wanted to keep it going. Enough is enough Marc.

 

[Steve williams]

I believe both sides have made valid points. I knew yesterday when my phone rang off the hook that this was not going to end well no matter what decision I made someone was still going to be angry at me. I believe in fee discourse and taking the good with the bad but this bloomed into something more direct and more personal such that the discourse became nasty. What Tim says is correct but there are indeed flamethrowers that try to keep the mud slinging. When I get up at 0300 to the bathroom and find personal message
comments directed at me and that he wants to keep the argument going makes me think how this has become a no win situation. I did at first think the conversation was polite and civil but then the tone and posture changed of the participants and this became nasty such that it had to stop. i knew the repercussions would be directed at me. They were indeed, even in the middle of the night. Discussing the pros and cons of things should be a sine qua non as long as it is done respectfully and courteously and without expletives. Such was not the case yesterday. Hence my decision to remove the offending posts.

I guess you're referring to me Steve. Sorry to spoil yr 3am bathroom visit. I remember a thread not so long ago that got the co-founder of WBF banned. I don't seem to remember any holding back from you, you were mighty vocal when Masterbuilt cbls were being trashed.

Now? It's just fine to pussy foot around Dave when he uses derogatory terms. Poo on a stick, fake etc.

Fine. I'm one for totally open and uncensored discourse. Let's just make sure that is consistent across all products and topics, from all contributors. Otherwise I'll be left w the distinct impression that it's ok for the big beasts like Dave to get stuff off his chest, but not us lesser mortals.

Btw, I'll keep yr 3am appt free of angst in future from my side Lol.

Did you ever read my post above Marc?

All too often Marc whenever a dust up starts you seem to be on the sidelines as a fanboy. I'm saying enough is enough.

Finally to all of those who said nothing on the thread but lit up my phone with their own agendas and what must be done, I am saddened that none of you had the cajones to joint the thread and try to put out the flame yourselves. All of you remain in your anonymity while the onus of responsibility is placed on my shoulders. So as micro says, "don't kill the messenger" I say that's OK as long as the discourse is civil

 

[Mike Lavigne]

when it appears that there are lines crossed, then it's time for moderators to moderate.

back channels are used when appropriate, whether texts or the 'report function', to reach out to moderators.

if you want members to step in and act as moderators and tell people to not cross lines i think that is a wrong direction. the angst just gets multiplied. it's all about whether a member views a post as reasonable to respond to or not. no universal one truth on that one. just a gathering of opposing forces.

but inferring that those reaching out to ask you to moderate are somehow cowards is 'lets say' not cricket. that's who you are.

and no one would be surprised that i texted you. i got nothing to hide.

 

[Steve williams]

I was texted by many many people and am not calling anyone cowards Mike. Let’s not blow this up into something which it isn’t. It’s time to move on I have agreed with everyone’s objections here and dealt with this matter so do you all want to get back to what we do best and that is to have discussions in a courteous and cordial fashion. I do object to messages that state they want to keep the fight going. Time to act as a grown up Name calling, expletives and ill will does nothing except to make matters worse. Now can we all move on. My comments were meant to be general in nature.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

thank you Steve. agree.

 

[Steve williams]

This is the beauty of such a diverse forum. We all have different tastes and hear differently and our rooms are all so different in every way so there is just so much good that is shared here on WBF every day. I never stop reading and I never stop learning. However as Mike pointed out and as I said yesterday there comes a time when as a moderator I have to draw a line in the sand. So let's just agree that we are all different and if there are differences to discuss, let's be adults about it and not kill the messenger but discuss the message. If there are differences I believe a civil discussion and debate about the pros and cons of anything should be allowed to carry on.

 

[Tango]

Now. Where is that Waldstein the General was asking for?

 

[tima]

My take from reading these posts perceives largely the shock in some when faced with a pointed "emperor has no clothes" comment after a few bowlfuls of sweetness and light. I've yet to find a product with universal consensus.

Hi Tim, I have to agree with your comment, regarding David...“emperor has no clothes ”.

Cheers!
ALF[/QUOTE]

Please let me make clear my post was not meant to be about David. Thanks.

 

[tima]

If there are differences I believe a civil discussion and debate about the pros and cons of anything should be allowed to carry on.

While Tang waves a red flag, (can bulls read?), one more comment on this that finds congruence (I think) with Steve's above:

I hope this brief time-out period does not take civil discussion about the use of panzerholz or Daiza off the table or turn it into a sacred cow because there was a skirmish and fear of further ignition. Seems like a legit topic. I have no experience with this 'wood'.

David, would you be willing to start the thread you mentioned earlier?

 

[NorthStar]

Poor Tango; his thread is all messed up now.

Have some Tang people ...

 

[EuroDriver]

it’s a product commentary on a slab of fake wood that has suddenly become holy!

Just for to provide some factual information about Panzerholz

I visited the factory in Germany where all they manufacture is Panzerholz and nothing else for over 50 years. They are very careful about the manufacture and consistency of the density of each slab. There are about 10 slightly different versions of Panzerholz offered, but they all have a density of 1.4.

The different versions have different layer thickness and they sound different. Taiko has its favourites depending on the application

The largest volume buyers of Panzerholz are manufacturers of large power distribution transformers. When a power distribution transformer has spool pieces made from Panzerholz, the efficiency of the transformer is typically about 6 percent higher than transformers using other spool piece materials. Small amounts of Panzerholz are also used by by some aircraft manufacturers for special applications.

In high end audio we note the following manufacturers are using Panzerholz
- Clearaudio, in some of their turntable bases
- Kaiser Audio, Germany for sections of their loudspeaker enclosures
- Artesania, Spain in some of their latest shelves for their rack systems
- Audio Note UK, for PCB applications, some thing Taiko does as well