Natural Sound

[morricab]

Well, the main reason I stay mostly with tubes is that in the used market they mainly represent much better value for money - I do not consider that tubes or SET sound intrinsically better than solid state. Very often tube equipment can be a source of trouble and most users do not want to stand with it.

Well that sums up why we are likely to never agree on this hobby, micro...you look at it from a resale or bang for buck perspective rather than one technology gives superior sound over another.

Based on psychoacoustic studies it is becoming clear that single ended topology (I won't necessarily exclude transistors) is more psychoacoustically preferred from it's distortion properties. I am like Bill, once I went SET I (almost) never looked back. Made sure my speakers fit the purpose of supporting the amps.

Do you not hear the clear difference in character that even the best transistors have vs. the best tubes (SET or PP triode)? Even amps like CH Precision, which are widely regarded as among the best SS, are not close in tonality and dimensionality of even a decent SET. Even a dense tonality SS amp like BAT or Vitus do not sound remotely similar to a SET or even a good PP triode amp (in Class A of course).

Even extreme class amps like the big darTZeel sound fundamentally different to, for example the Lamm ML3. I am reminded by Michael Fremer's review that painted the stark contrast. IMO, one of those is intrinsically better and it is the one with the better psychoacoustic distortion profile.

 

[Lampie519]

You man have to hack into those email exchanges and finagle an invitation.

You are invited if you do not mind the "nutty professor's mess", i can compensate with good music and beverages

 

[bonzo75]

You may just have to be content with attending live concerts and visiting other people's systems. I'd start with a tour of Boston. I know of five WBF systems though I have heard only four of them. You man have to hack into those email exchanges and finagle an invitation.

Yes that's what makes the hobby fun anyway. I can't otherwise imagine sitting at home with one system, imagining every day what it could get up to, and then coming on the forum to write what a great sound I got at home yesterday.

 

[morricab]

Brad, are you processing the highs with DSP too ? Or just the bass range ?

The highs too. It is a digital active crossover in my DIY second system. However, it is only digital out so I feed it into to two good quality DACs that then feed two SETs (Ayon Spark for the mid/bass and 300B monos (based on WE91 but redesigned by Thorsten Loesch to get more extension on both ends) for the high horns. Crossed at 1Khz. A bit of EQ above 7Khz to extend because the constant directivity horn induces more roll off than just what the driver would have.

 

[Lampie519]

Writing about a never changing system will get bored after some time no matter how good it is...
Luckily there are stories to tell how you (we) got there.... and maybe someone is still interested... even though the aim is different (use of topology and equipment).

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Well, the main reason I stay mostly with tubes is that in the used market they mainly represent much better value for money - I do not consider that tubes or SET sound intrinsically better than solid state. Very often tube equipment can be a source of trouble and most users do not want to stand with it.

Yes better value for money could well be true. I personally also prefer point to point ones but that is about longer term maintenance.
Your last sentence is a slightly different angle - you are answering a different question - I would agree that one can’t have a preference in broad terms considering ALL speakers because some simply don’t suit one of the topologies. Let me put the question differently:

> For highly efficient horn systems, you don’t see that tubes or SETs sound intrinsically better than solid state when compared broadly?

 

[PeterA]

Well that sums up why we are likely to never agree on this hobby, micro...you look at it from a resale or bang for buck perspective rather than one technology gives superior sound over another.

Based on psychoacoustic studies it is becoming clear that single ended topology (I won't necessarily exclude transistors) is more psychoacoustically preferred from it's distortion properties. I am like Bill, once I went SET I (almost) never looked back. Made sure my speakers fit the purpose of supporting the amps.

Do you not hear the clear difference in character that even the best transistors have vs. the best tubes (SET or PP triode)? Even amps like CH Precision, which are widely regarded as among the best SS, are not close in tonality and dimensionality of even a decent SET. Even a dense tonality SS amp like BAT or Vitus do not sound remotely similar to a SET or even a good PP triode amp (in Class A of course).

Even extreme class amps like the big darTZeel sound fundamentally different to, for example the Lamm ML3. I am reminded by Michael Fremer's review that painted the stark contrast. IMO, one of those is intrinsically better and it is the one with the better psychoacoustic distortion profile.

I am reminded our own MikeL's comparisons between his dartZeel, VTL, and ML3. That was fascinating reading.

I did not think of troubling David to directly compare the ML3 to the ML2 in his big system. That would have been quite interesting, considering the differences in output, size and cost. Each likely does its own magic.

I had always approached the question from the speaker's perspective. With my Magicos, I needed more and more powerful amps and kept upgrading. With this new system, I had the ML2 first and then the Vitavox, but really it could have gone either way. If I had the Vitavox, I would seek out the ML2. Both are excellent, but the combination is truly special.

 

[wil]

For me going with SS on horns is a bit like drinking riesling on a cold night… brrrrr

I completely get that some speakers do need SS but for me the advantage of horns is to be able to get the best out of SET electronics and vice versa.

I would guess that with Peter’s Lamms the bass quality would align beautifully with his horns. More as a complex deep shiraz perhaps.

I really liked the LTA MZ3 set with the Duo Mezzos.(1 watt!). But it and the other SET's always sounded distorted (even if pleasant 2nd harmonics) compared to the appropriate SS. I think the tendency is to try to balance the perceived "hardness" of horns with bloomy distortion. I found I preferred the pure, clean sound of the Bakoon which doesn't sound like it is balancing or covering anything. Just my relatively limited experience.

 

[djsina2]

Are those Audio Tekne speakers? Can you explain their design?

Yes, those are Audio Tekne SP-8716. This is the older version with thinner carbon cabinet. It has a Diatone P-610 with Ale 1750 tweeter. I received my pair this week from Imai for my “natural sound” Audio Tekne system. Mine do not have the tweeter, has a different model P-610, and has the thicker cabinet with matching full carbon stands.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Even extreme class amps like the big darTZeel sound fundamentally different to, for example the Lamm ML3. I am reminded by Michael Fremer's review that painted the stark contrast. IMO, one of those is intrinsically better and it is the one with the better psychoacoustic distortion profile.

it would be interesting to see what Fremer might say about the how new version of those big darts (468) might compare to the ML3's compared to how that that previous darTZeel model, the 458's compared.

i went through exactly the same process myself and found that the 468 was able to capture much more of the feeling of the ML3's. it's uncanny how non solid state the 468's sound. would every system react to these amps the same? unlikely i suppose. just how it sounded to me. whatever trade-offs were involved in my original compare would have been greatly reduced on the dart 468 side.

solid state goodness is not standing still.

 

[PeterA]

Yes that's what makes the hobby fun anyway. I can't otherwise imagine sitting at home with one system, imagining every day what it could get up to, and then coming on the forum to write what a great sound I got at home yesterday.

You compare and contrast in the homes of others and then write about it. Those with their own systems enjoy them, play and experiment and improve and then share the results with others. You have a unique and interesting approach to the hobby. Some simply enjoy what they have and we never hear from them.

 

[PeterA]

it would be interesting to see what Fremer might say about the how new version of those big darts (468) might compare to the ML3's compared to how that that previous darTZeel model, the 458's compared.

i went through exactly the same process myself and found that the 468 was able to capture much more of the feeling of the ML3's. it's uncanny how non solid state the 468's sound. would every system react to these amps the same? unlikely i suppose. just how it sounded to me. whatever trade-offs were involved in my original compare would have been greatly reduced on the dart 468 side.

solid state goodness is not standing still.

Mike, did you have a suspicion of what the "feeling" of the ML3s is before you had them in your system? In other words, did you know you were missing something with the 458s before you heard the ML3s and owned the 468s?

Can you describe what that "feeling" is?

 

[morricab]

I really liked the LTA MZ3 set with the Duo Mezzos.(1 watt!). But it and the other SET's always sounded distorted (even if pleasant 2nd harmonics) compared to the appropriate SS. I think the tendency is to try to balance the perceived "hardness" of horns with bloomy distortion. I found I preferred the pure, clean sound of the Bakoon which doesn't sound like it is balancing or covering anything. Just my relatively limited experience.

Yet, you are now with very different sounding speakers. I know the Boenicke W13s quite well (heard them several times at Sven Boenicke's workshop). Very far from AG horns...is that because you found speakers that better match that Bakoon?

 

[jeff1225]

Yes that's what makes the hobby fun anyway. I can't otherwise imagine sitting at home with one system, imagining every day what it could get up to, and then coming on the forum to write what a great sound I got at home yesterday.

This is where the love of gear take president over the purpose of the gear: to play music. When I get the Wall Street Journal on Sundays, fire up the Bose 901 mid-fi system and out on a jazz record, I’m not thinking about upgrading the sound.

I could be very happy with this system, my records and the KLAUDIO cleaner. It’s ultimately about music for me, and not gear.

 

[morricab]

Mike, did you have a suspicion of what the "feeling" of the ML3s is before you had them in your system? In other words, did you know you were missing something with the 458s before you heard the ML3s and owned the 468s?

Can you describe what that "feeling" is?

Good questions! Probably it was described in his large thread but you would have to wade through all the pages to find out perhaps...

 

[Kingrex]

Well, the main reason I stay mostly with tubes is that in the used market they mainly represent much better value for money - I do not consider that tubes or SET sound intrinsically better than solid state. Very often tube equipment can be a source of trouble and most users do not want to stand with it.

I am still trying to get my Black Shadows dialed in. Bias issues. Then bias bypass cap issues. Now that I pulled the top plate to really look, I find the input circuit is wired different in the 2 amps. WTF.

But every time I pull them out of my system and put my KT88 PP wilma circuit amps back in, I realize how much better the Black S are.

This all makes me wonder about SS. So now wirh Doug Schroeder's review of the Legacy iV2, and 2 friend having the amps and feeling they slay so many others, and only costing $4750, I'm circling the SS bowl once again. But for how good it may be, I still fear it won't have some pleasing set of distortion that makes music sound real to me. So I hang out on the fence.

 

[morricab]

it would be interesting to see what Fremer might say about the how new version of those big darts (468) might compare to the ML3's compared to how that that previous darTZeel model, the 458's compared.

i went through exactly the same process myself and found that the 468 was able to capture much more of the feeling of the ML3's. it's uncanny how non solid state the 468's sound. would every system react to these amps the same? unlikely i suppose. just how it sounded to me. whatever trade-offs were involved in my original compare would have been greatly reduced on the dart 468 side.

solid state goodness is not standing still.

I would be curious how that performance changed with horns.

 

[morricab]

I am still trying to get my Black Shadows dialed in. Bias issues. Then bias bypass cap issues. Now that I pulled the top plate to really look, I find the input circuit is wired different in the 2 amps. WTF.

But every time I pull them out of my system and put my KT88 PP wilma circuit amps back in, I realize how much better the Black S are.

This all makes me wonder about SS. So now wirh Doug Schroeder's review of the Legacy iV2, and 2 friend having the amps and feeling they slay so many others, and only costing $4750, I'm circling the SS bowl once again. But for how good it may be, I still fear it won't have some pleasing set of distortion that makes music sound real to me. So I hang out on the fence.

Sounds like bad QC at Audion...

 

[PeterA]

This is where the love of gear take president over the purpose of the gear: to play music. When I get the Wall Street Journal on Sundays, fire up the Bose 901 mid-fi system and out on a jazz record, I’m not thinking about upgrading the sound.

I could be very happy with this system, my records and the KLAUDIO cleaner. It’s ultimately about music for me, and not gear.

Right on Jeff!

I was always curious about that next incremental upgrade with my former system: Magico M3 speakers, next Pass phono, preamp, or amps. Even the next generation Transparent cable when those were around. That stopped abruptly when I started doing the experiments and finally simply sold everything for a completely different system. Now, I just listen and enjoy. Zero thoughts about what is next, or how I can improve things outside of waiting for my new rack to be completed and for David visiting and fine tuning the set up. Of course, I look very forward to your visit next week.

 

[bonzo75]

This is where the love of gear take president over the purpose of the gear: to play music. When I get the Wall Street Journal on Sundays, fire up the Bose 901 mid-fi system and out on a jazz record, I’m not thinking about upgrading the sound.

I could be very happy with this system, my records and the KLAUDIO cleaner. It’s ultimately about music for me, and not gear.

I have been listening to cgoroo's channel regularly over a small speaker since live concerts stopped. He records great music think he does it straight from the phono

https://youtube.com/user/cgoroo