Anyone Understand Design Approach of Stenheim? What are they doing differently from Magico, YG, Wilson, etc., to have High Sensitivity?

[andromedaaudio]

sounding nice' is not the same as 'accurate'.

Bingo

 

[jespera]

What do you expect from a 32 W/ch Kondo Overture amp on those speakers? No surprise the Stenheim made Elvis and Armstrong sound in need of blood transfusions and had no physical bass.

Besides that, the setup of the speakers next to others is compromised.

I'd be able to drive my 92 dB sensitive 8 Ohm 2-way monitors with that amp, but I would not consider it on multi-way floorstanders with two 10 inch woofers that may dip down into 2 Ohm.

Instead I drive my monitors with a tube amp of 100 W/ch into 8 Ohms, which is overkill for these speakers that can very comfortably be driven by my old 15 W/ch amps. I don't like to compromise on amp power.

The stenheim is specified as an 8 ohm speaker with 94 db/w sensitivity, the dealer says it works well with tubes, and art dudley said it is great with a flea power valve set amp.

So id expect elvis to sound like elvis — not roxy band from bindslev.

Besides, the kondo is perfectly capable of driving the harbeths. A 3 way speaker of 86db/w sensitivity, compromised by being placed next to another speaker, and so forth.

I doubt we ever went over 1W even with the harbeths.

 

[Atmasphere]

The stenheim is specified as an 8 ohm speaker with 94 db/w sensitivity, the dealer says it works well with tubes, and art dudley said it is great with a flea power valve set amp.

What is meant by 'flea power'? Eight Ohms and 94dB should be great with tubes. But its a stretch to say its good with 'flea power' if that means '4 Watts or less'?

 

[jespera]

What is meant by 'flea power'? Eight Ohms and 94dB should be great with tubes. But its a stretch to say its good with 'flea power' if that means '4 Watts or less'?

Listening #183: Stenheim Alumine Five Page 2

www.stereophile.com

4 watts

 

[microstrip]

From the Stereophile review:

"Stenheim describes the Alumine Five as having a sensitivity of fully 94dB, with a nominal 8-ohm impedance that does not dip below 3 ohms. "

Stereophile does not present measurements in this review, but " does not dip bellow 3 ohms" is a very bizare warning comment for a nominal 8 ohms, particularly as it does not refer the frequency of the dip.

 

[LL21]

H

Hi Atmasphere,

Interesting. Based on the above, with a 94db speaker nominal 4ohm (like the XLF), in an open plan space 39' x 17' x 11' but where the speakers are like at 26', where would you recommend one target amp power?

That speaker is really 91dB in terms of efficiency. Much will depend on how lively the room is and individual listening preferences. That's a pretty big room- In my case I'd want to put at least 200 watts on that. Depending on furnishing and so one, you might still be able to run the amp out of gas but it would suit most of the time.

Thank you! The Robert Kodas are 230 watts Class A into a 4ohm load at the high power setting (some 1100 watts out of the wall), so it seems a good amount of power, and we tend not to listen loudly.

 

[Atmasphere]

Stereophile does not present measurements in this review, but " does not dip bellow 3 ohms" is a very bizare warning comment for a nominal 8 ohms, particularly as it does not refer the frequency of the dip.

I suspect its more serious than that- the speaker employs dual woofers (which increases the woofer sensitivity while the efficiency is unaffected) which likely means the woofer array is 4 Ohms while the mids and highs are 8. If you plan to use an SET on a speaker like this, the 4 Ohm tap will prove insufficient. This is because the SET won't be using feedback, and so the woofers will lag behind the mids and highs to the tune of 3dB. You'll have weak bass. An amp that can operate as a voltage source will put out the same voltage on this load, and so will be doubling power into the woofer array.

Many speaker manufacturers use this approach. SETs and any tube amp not using feedback will be incompatible with this particular model. For more on this see The Power Paradigm vs. the Voltage Paradigm

 

[Al M.]

I suspect its more serious than that- the speaker employs dual woofers (which increases the woofer sensitivity while the efficiency is unaffected) which likely means the woofer array is 4 Ohms while the mids and highs are 8. If you plan to use an SET on a speaker like this, the 4 Ohm tap will prove insufficient. This is because the SET won't be using feedback, and so the woofers will lag behind the mids and highs to the tune of 3dB. You'll have weak bass. An amp that can operate as a voltage source will put out the same voltage on this load, and so will be doubling power into the woofer array.

Many speaker manufacturers use this approach. SETs and any tube amp not using feedback will be incompatible with this particular model. For more on this see The Power Paradigm vs. the Voltage Paradigm

Thank you, Ralph, for this explanation. It goes to show that simple numbers do not tell the whole story. You have to, as it were, "look under the hood", as you did in this post.

I once had a friend with the same 15W/ch push-pull triode monoblocks as I had, which drove our respective two-way monitors beautifully. He then bought, simply on specifications, speakers of nominal 96 dB sensitivity (much higher than that of our monitors), but with large woofers. The amps "died" on the speakers, with a flat and undynamic sound.

 

[KeithR]

Here are Alumine 3 measurements

Stenheim Alumine Three loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

 

[morricab]

That speaker is really 91dB in terms of efficiency. Much will depend on how lively the room is and individual listening preferences. That's a pretty big room- In my case I'd want to put at least 200 watts on that. Depending on furnishing and so one, you might still be able to run the amp out of gas but it would suit most of the time.

I didn't. 20 Watts makes more sense, although that is barely over 3dB louder. The problem with SETs of course if the more power they make, the more limited the bandwidth. I just don't regard 813s and the like as being practical: to prevent phase shift causing colorations, you need a lot of bandwidth unless you are running enough feedback to correct phase shift (which typically has to be north of 35dB or so); with the understanding of course that 'sounding nice' is not the same as 'accurate'. I want both.

I won’t go around this again because I already demonstrated to you in a previous thread (or forum) that there are a number of manufacturers making “big bottle” SETs with bandwidths beyond 50khz and some to 100Khz. So, please put away your default tropes...that one just isn’t true. Amps from Aries Cerat, NAT, Ayon are just a few that are sufficiently extended.

 

[morricab]

Bingo

Try a NAT SE2SE on your speakers...you won’t keep your CAT afterwards...

 

[morricab]

The stenheim is specified as an 8 ohm speaker with 94 db/w sensitivity, the dealer says it works well with tubes, and art dudley said it is great with a flea power valve set amp.

So id expect elvis to sound like elvis — not roxy band from bindslev.

Besides, the kondo is perfectly capable of driving the harbeths. A 3 way speaker of 86db/w sensitivity, compromised by being placed next to another speaker, and so forth.

I doubt we ever went over 1W even with the harbeths.

Well, it could be simply that you don’t like the sound concept of that speaker brand.

 

[adrianywu]

I have been using extremely high sensitivity speakers with DHT amps, since I cannot understand the rationale for using low sensitivity speakers (except lower noise, if your system is not completely clean). I have plasma tweeters and field coil compression mids, driven by 300B monoblocks, with field coil 15" bass in reflex cab that I drive with a SS amp, using a 3-way electronic crossover. I recently helped two friends purchase their sound system. One is a magazine-reading audiophile who is only interested in Wilsons, Tidals, Magicos etc. The other is a music lover who is willing to spend a larger sum for a good sounding system. For the first friend, we have tried different amp/speaker combinations (he is using Magico speakers currently). Nothing sounded good except for some extremely expensive high powered amplifiers that cost 3 to 4 times what his speakers cost. Tube amps were useless. For my second friend, I was able to guide her to high sensitivity speakers. We eventually settled on Zu Definition IV. These speakers have two full range crossover-less 10" paper cone drivers, with a horn compression tweeter on top and a powered subwoofer below. Sensitivity is 101dB/1W at 8 ohms impedance. As Ralph mentioned, without having to work with large woofers, the speakers sounded very dynamic and powerful even with an 8W 300B SET. Interestingly, we also tried a KT120 based PP amp (Rogue Cronus) and the sound was unsatisfactory. The speakers were extremely sensitive to the characteristics of the amp. The tone just was not right. A 2A3 PP amp was better, but the 300B SET was best. I guess with such speakers, the ability to drive low impedance loads is no longer an issue, and other areas of the performance such as tonal balance come to the fore. To be honest, the speakers "only" cost $16.5K, and with a modest SET integrated amp, the combination sounded to my ears much more musical and enjoyable than my other friend's Magicos with 6-figure amps. But that is just my preference.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Try a NAT SE2SE on your speakers...you won’t keep your CAT afterwards...

I have heard NAT at a dealer and at shows , wasnt to impressed may be it was the system set up
Even the dealer said to me CAT was better , off the record
CAT is not heavily advertising which makes it impopular.

 

[bonzo75]

I have been using extremely high sensitivity speakers with DHT amps, since I cannot understand the rationale for using low sensitivity speakers (except lower noise, if your system is not completely clean). I have plasma tweeters and field coil compression mids, driven by 300B monoblocks, with field coil 15" bass in reflex cab that I drive with a SS amp, using a 3-way electronic crossover. I recently helped two friends purchase their sound system. One is a magazine-reading audiophile who is only interested in Wilsons, Tidals, Magicos etc. The other is a music lover who is willing to spend a larger sum for a good sounding system. For the first friend, we have tried different amp/speaker combinations (he is using Magico speakers currently). Nothing sounded good except for some extremely expensive high powered amplifiers that cost 3 to 4 times what his speakers cost. Tube amps were useless. For my second friend, I was able to guide her to high sensitivity speakers. We eventually settled on Zu Definition IV. These speakers have two full range crossover-less 10" paper cone drivers, with a horn compression tweeter on top and a powered subwoofer below. Sensitivity is 101dB/1W at 8 ohms impedance. As Ralph mentioned, without having to work with large woofers, the speakers sounded very dynamic and powerful even with an 8W 300B SET. Interestingly, we also tried a KT120 based PP amp (Rogue Cronus) and the sound was unsatisfactory. The speakers were extremely sensitive to the characteristics of the amp. The tone just was not right. A 2A3 PP amp was better, but the 300B SET was best. I guess with such speakers, the ability to drive low impedance loads is no longer an issue, and other areas of the performance such as tonal balance come to the fore. To be honest, the speakers "only" cost $16.5K, and with a modest SET integrated amp, the combination sounded to my ears much more musical and enjoyable than my other friend's Magicos with 6-figure amps. But that is just my preference.

Tube amps will never sound as good with Wilsons and Magicos as SS amps, and yes cost of SS amps keeps going up for quality. One thing with tube amps is to add a SS preamp like Soulution instead of the valve preamp, then they can work better.

Which 2a3 PP amp did you try? NAF 2a3 is very good, and which valves did you use? Which 300b amp and valves are you using?

 

[bonzo75]

Btw, if you met your Zu friend online, it is not a she, it is actually a guy on this forum who pretends to be a she to attract men to Zus

 

[morricab]

I have heard NAT at a dealer and at shows , wasnt to impressed may be it was the system set up
Even the dealer said to me CAT was better , off the record
CAT is not heavily advertising which makes it impopular.

We compared the CAT JL2 Signature to the NAT SE2SE monos and while it was not a blow out, the NATs were better than the CAT. That was one Apogee Grands, which were being used like Apogee Divas as the active xover was being refurbished.

 

[andromedaaudio]

the NATs were better than the CAT

If you say so , okay i ll surrender , you have me completely convinced .
I m gonna buy a DIY hornsystem and some SET flee power tube amps from now on , just to get some credibility and respect on this forum.

Ps i cant take it anymore , there must be a problem with my hearing ability

 

[morricab]

If you say so , okay i ll surrender , you have me completely convinced .
I m gonna buy a DIY hornsystem and some SET flee power tube amps from now on , just to get some credibility and respect on this forum.

Ps i cant take it anymore , there must be a problem with my hearing ability

Nah, just try some higher powered SETs on your speakers and report back... there is a good Aries Cerat dealer in Holland that can help you out...

 

[andromedaaudio]

Nah, just try some higher powered SETs on your speakers and report back... there is a good Aries Cerat dealer in Holland that can help you out...

I ve sat 20 -25 min in the sweetspot at this set up during the dutch audio show .
There is no way im gonna swap my CAT gear for that .
Dynamics morricab
and neither the transducers or digital.