Anyone Understand Design Approach of Stenheim? What are they doing differently from Magico, YG, Wilson, etc., to have High Sensitivity?

[Al M.]

Last night I listened to stenheim v and harbeth 40.2 at a friend’s house. Amp was a kondo push-pull.

The stenheim made elvis and armstrong sound in need of blood transfusions. In fact, i was in doubt whether it was the king or a pretender from jutland. Bass was distinctly non-physical. After a few tracks we switched to the harbeths and didnt bother going back.

I have heard them before at a dealer’s with ch precision amp and was also then underwhelmed. An academic experience.

So no, i dont understand the design concept of stenheim. Id say there are more amusing ways to spend 470,000 dkk.


View attachment 86371

What do you expect from a 32 W/ch Kondo Overture amp on those speakers? No surprise the Stenheim made Elvis and Armstrong sound in need of blood transfusions and had no physical bass.

Besides that, the setup of the speakers next to others is compromised.

I'd be able to drive my 92 dB sensitive 8 Ohm 2-way monitors with that amp, but I would not consider it on multi-way floorstanders with two 10 inch woofers that may dip down into 2 Ohm.

Instead I drive my monitors with a tube amp of 100 W/ch into 8 Ohms, which is overkill for these speakers that can very comfortably be driven by my old 15 W/ch amps. I don't like to compromise on amp power.

 

[DasguteOhr]

normally there shouldn't be a problem with stenheim 94dB / 1 watt if you don't listen at party volume.
the Harbeth 40.2 is a real chunk. it is very difficult to find something better when it comes to the naturalness of the reproduction.
it is also not an efficient loudspeaker 86dB / 1watt
it has been built almost unchanged for almost 50 years, so you have to be convinced of your product or be really stubborn.
All I can say is that I am a huge fan of these speakers.

 

[andromedaaudio]

The highest sensitivity figure I found was 95dB on a speaker that was 4 Ohms.

I suppose you mean nominal impedance
What would you say is the minimum impedance value a LS needs to be above to play well with a SET (without having to much distortion )

 

[Al M.]

normally there shouldn't be a problem with stenheim 94dB / 1 watt if you don't listen at party volume.
the Harbeth 40.2 is a real chunk. it is very difficult to find something better when it comes to the naturalness of the reproduction.
it is also not an efficient loudspeaker 86dB / 1watt
it has been built almost unchanged for almost 50 years, so you have to be convinced of your product or be really stubborn.
All I can say is that I am a huge fan of these speakers.

The Harbeth has a 6 to 8 Ohm impedance, for starters.

 

[DasguteOhr]

The Harbeth has a 6 to 8 Ohm impedance, for starters.

From a technical point of view, it doesn't matter at first, you hear arithmetically twice as loud with the Stenheim as with the Harbeth at the maximum power of the amplifier. Every listener will judge differently whether that fits, better or worse.
often had loudspeakers, where you said it can't work. then went very well, it means trying and not studying

Link scroll down can calculate there

Efficiency and sensitivity conversion - loudspeaker percent and dB per watt and meter loudspeaker efficiency versus sensitivity vs speaker sensitivity 1 watt = 2,83 volt box chart - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

Efficiency and sensitivity conversion - loudspeaker percent and dB per watt and meter dB/W/m loudspeaker efficiency versus sensitivity vs speaker sensitivity 1 watt = 2,83 volt box chart - sengpielaudio Eberhard Sengpiel

www.sengpielaudio.com

 

[Cableman]

Hi Ron,
Yes, I think large tube amplifiers like VTL would work well on most modern speakers (again, with somewhat reduced dynamics than most SS).

But I think the genius of the Stenheim design is that it can appeal to guys who like medium and low powered amps.

See it’s this myth that keeps getting promulgated that pizzes me off.
SETs DO NOT HAVE REDUCED DYNAMICS compared to SS, certainly not Audiopax Model 88s. If you think otherwise then youve never heard a properly set pair.

 

[Cableman]

Te

very nice sounding up and coming brand - I auditioned them several times on my speaker thread. they distinguish themselves by using paper drivers in ported aluminum cabinets. I found them warm, musical, and dynamic but also a tad dark on Doshi tubes with perhaps a lower soundstage than others. with CH there is no darkness but sounds a bit dry. I left my audition thinking Dart would be ideal.

i am looking forward to hearing the Alumine 5 v2 whenever that comes. i'm sure the cabinet design and crossovers will get better over time. JPP personally answered my email as well - super cool dude.

but they aren't SET friendly at like 93db/4ohms

Try SET Audiopax Model 88 with 92dB sensitivity speakers. Great combo if you set the timbre lock correctly.

 

[morricab]

Stenheim seems to be a new, breakout brand and is uniquely positioned to appeal to those who want modern audiophile sound in a handsome box AND to those audiophiles who want the "emotion of tubes", especially SETs, due to their high sensitivity.

Anyone understand what Stenheim is doing differently design-wise from the Magicos, YGs, and Wilsons, three of the most popular brands today, yet whose speakers do not work well with most tube amps (unless one doesn't mind diminished dynamics and a syrupy sound)?

Higher sensitivity drivers yields a higher sensitivity speaker = more SET/tube friendly...

 

[Cableman]

Higher sensitivity drivers yields a higher sensitivity speaker = more SET/tube friendly...

Would you say 92dB is high sensitivity?

 

[Salectric]

Would you say 92dB is high sensitivity?

Not at all.

 

[Atmasphere]

I suppose you mean nominal impedance
What would you say is the minimum impedance value a LS needs to be above to play well with a SET (without having to much distortion )

If you want to get the most out of any tube amp, higher impedances are part of how to do that. When driving a 4 Ohm load on the 4 Ohm tap, you can lose as much as an octave a bandwidth off of the bottom with most output transformers. The amp will also be slightly lower power and slightly higher distortion; this is all due to the OPT being less efficient (the output transformer will literally run warmer- and that extra heat is coming from amplifier power).

So 8 Ohms at a minimum and 16 Ohms is ideal.

However to be clear, all amplifiers are lower distortion into higher impedances, not just tube amps! If high fidelity is your goal your amplifier dollar investment will be better served by a loudspeaker of higher impedance (all other things mysteriously being equal...). If your goal is increased sound pressure you may have a 3dB incentive to go with a 4 Ohm load.

The industry loves to talk out of both side of its mouth- on the one hand, calling SETs (and other tube amps) 'tone controls' on account of the warmth imparted by the immense 2nd harmonic, yet at the same time claiming that distortion is 'inaudible' in modern amps (which is a claim I've heard going back 40 years at least...). Neither statement is accurate. Most solid state amps are bright simply due to audible distortion, even if its 0.005% THD.

A solid state amp will make less distortion into a higher impedance and because its audible distortion tends to be higher ordered harmonics (which the ear interprets as brightness and harshness, since the lower orders are lacking and so unable to mask those higher orders), it will sound smoother and more detailed driving a higher impedance. IMO there isn't a good argument for 4 Ohm speakers in high end audio. Just because a power house amp can drive a 2 or 4 Ohm load isn't the same as that amp sounding its best... Sorry for the long diatribe.

 

[morricab]

Would you say 92dB is high sensitivity?

Highish. Alumine 5 is rated at 94db and 8 ohm load. in a moderate sized room a 20 watt SET will do nicely with such a speaker.

 

[morricab]

Would you say 92dB is high sensitivity?

Reference Ultime 3 and 5 are both rated at 96db.

 

[Cableman]

Not at all.

And yes my 30w /c SETs drive them fabulously.

 

[Atmasphere]

Highish. Alumine 5 is rated at 94db and 8 ohm load.

I regard that as 'moderate'. In my room which is not that large, I'd want at least 60 watts on a speaker of that efficiency. To use a typical SET (7 watts; 300b) I'd want the speaker to be about 102dB. Maybe 99dB in a pinch, but only playing quietly.

 

[morricab]

I regard that as 'moderate'. In my room which is not that large, I'd want at least 60 watts on a speaker of that efficiency. To use a typical SET (7 watts; 300b) I'd want the speaker to be about 102dB. Maybe 99dB in a pinch, but only playing quietly.

Did you see that I mentioned a 20 watt SET, not a 7 watt 300B? I have found that 300B amps seem unusually weak in driving power as well, whereas a 6C33C based amp has for the same rated power as a parallel 300B amp (15-20 watts) a lot of punch and grunt, while sounding quite tuneful. THen you have tubes like 813 (in triode), 211 and GM70 that sound great and will drive "moderate" speakers with aplomb.

 

[morricab]

And yes my 30w /c SETs drive them fabulously.

You have Stenheim?

 

[Cableman]

You have Stenheim?

No. Apologies if I wasn’t clear. I don’t have Stemheim

 

[LL21]

H

I regard that as 'moderate'. In my room which is not that large, I'd want at least 60 watts on a speaker of that efficiency. To use a typical SET (7 watts; 300b) I'd want the speaker to be about 102dB. Maybe 99dB in a pinch, but only playing quietly.

Hi Atmasphere,

Interesting. Based on the above, with a 94db speaker nominal 4ohm (like the XLF), in an open plan space 39' x 17' x 11' but where the speakers are like at 26', where would you recommend one target amp power?

 

[Atmasphere]

H

Hi Atmasphere,

Interesting. Based on the above, with a 94db speaker nominal 4ohm (like the XLF), in an open plan space 39' x 17' x 11' but where the speakers are like at 26', where would you recommend one target amp power?

That speaker is really 91dB in terms of efficiency. Much will depend on how lively the room is and individual listening preferences. That's a pretty big room- In my case I'd want to put at least 200 watts on that. Depending on furnishing and so one, you might still be able to run the amp out of gas but it would suit most of the time.

Did you see that I mentioned a 20 watt SET, not a 7 watt 300B? I have found that 300B amps seem unusually weak in driving power as well, whereas a 6C33C based amp has for the same rated power as a parallel 300B amp (15-20 watts) a lot of punch and grunt, while sounding quite tuneful. THen you have tubes like 813 (in triode), 211 and GM70 that sound great and will drive "moderate" speakers with aplomb.

I didn't. 20 Watts makes more sense, although that is barely over 3dB louder. The problem with SETs of course if the more power they make, the more limited the bandwidth. I just don't regard 813s and the like as being practical: to prevent phase shift causing colorations, you need a lot of bandwidth unless you are running enough feedback to correct phase shift (which typically has to be north of 35dB or so); with the understanding of course that 'sounding nice' is not the same as 'accurate'. I want both.