Does DSP belong in State of the Art Systems?

[schlager]

Ron, that´s totally fine, you don´t have to agree, just accept it as a fact, enjoy your audio journey

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, that´s totally fine, you don´t have to agree, just accept it as a fact, enjoy your audio journey

I am always happy to conclude a discussion by agreeing to disagree.

 

[PeterA]

Please know that if you are assuming that I am equating necessarily “state of the art” with currently available components, you are mistaken. My concept of “state of the art“ applies only to resulting sound, not to the technologies built into the components.

Contemporary production or vintage is not a parameter that factors into my personal concept of, and personal definition regarding, sonic state of the art. According to my personal conception a system composed entirely of vintage components could achieve state of the art sound.

(In my definitional construct pursuing different audiophile objectives will drive purchasers to build very different sounding systems. One person’s “state of the art” could be another person’s “slow and syrupy and rolled off.” One person’s “state of the art” could be another person’s “sterile, hyper-detailed and amusical.”)

Ron, is the "State of the Art" something personal to each individual listener, or is it a kind of objective concept of where a particular industry is at the current moment? I always thought this was a kind of agreed upon and understood concept. You seem to define it in very personal, subjective terms. Is it whatever anyone thinks it is?

It seems to me that the State of the Art in 1960 was very different from what it is today.

 

[pjwd]

Back to SOTA/DSP if you ever have a chance have a listen to these .. they are superb

On room correction a friend who is familiar with acourate showed me just yesterday just what it could do. I was very sceptical that you could measure and correct down to low frequency in a room given all the chaos of reflected sound but clearly there are some clever algorithms in this program . My room is very symmetrical and correlation of speakers was around 90% within 1db. I would have assumed it was better but all the small variations of furniture , wall finishes etc. make quite a difference The program made all these minor adjustments to equalize outputs and the increased separation and deliniation of instruments and sparkling clarity did indeed enhance the suspension of belief . A way bigger improvement than some new kit. For anyone going full digital I believe dsp crossovers and room correction is going to be unbeatable . As always implementation is everything and a good room acoustic is a great foundation. Both are not trivial tasks
Cheers
Phil

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, is the "State of the Art" something personal to each individual listener, or is it a kind of objective concept of where a particular industry is at the current moment? I always thought this was a kind of agreed upon and understood concept. You seem to define it in very personal, subjective terms. Is it whatever anyone thinks it is?

It seems to me that the State of the Art in 1960 was very different from what it is today.

It is not for me to pronounce a singular meaning of a term. The same term can have different meanings depending on the context, and different meanings depending on the stipulated definition in a particular application.

 

[PeterA]

It is not for me to pronounce a singular meaning of a term. The same term can have different meanings depending on the context, and different meanings depending on the stipulated definition in a particular application.

Below is what I had always thought it meant. I guess to continue this thread discussion, we should define the expression. Here is one:

Noun:

1. the most recent stage in the development of a product, incorporating the newest technology, ideas, and features.
   "the state of the art in 3D printing"

 

[Ron Resnick]

Below is what I had always thought it meant. I guess to continue this thread discussion, we should define the expression. Here is one:

Noun:

1. the most recent stage in the development of a product, incorporating the newest technology, ideas, and features.
   "the state of the art in 3D printing"

I agree that this is the correct general definition.

Maybe, in this hobby, we should distinguish between “state of the technological art” and “state of the sonic art”?

 

[tima]

The phrase "suspension of disbelief" is hackneyed, awkward and overused. I don't go into a listening session thinking that I will neither hear live music nor be emotionally engaged and then hope that somehow I can disabuse myself of that thought. The music itself is far more interesting and enjoyable than the psychological infrastructure around hearing it.

 

[tima]

BTW, no serious audiophile should refer anymore to frequency response when addressing speakers - at minimum they should address the power response.

Consistently Toolean.

Sound Power Response vs. Frequency Response

Dr. Olive, I have many questions that hopefully you can help shed light on. 1. How does sound power response relate to frequency response? Dr. Olive, you're the only person I've seen use the phrase with any regularity and it's inserted doubt into my understanding of frequency response...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[bonzo75]

Consistently Toolean.

Sound Power Response vs. Frequency Response

Dr. Olive, I have many questions that hopefully you can help shed light on. 1. How does sound power response relate to frequency response? Dr. Olive, you're the only person I've seen use the phrase with any regularity and it's inserted doubt into my understanding of frequency response...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Well at least he is being consistent and not contradicting himself now

 

[tima]

Well at least he is being consistent and not contradicting himself now

Take a picture.

 

[pjwd]

The phrase "suspension of disbelief" is hackneyed, awkward and overused. I don't go into a listening session thinking that I will neither hear live music nor be emotionally engaged and then hope that somehow I can disabuse myself w of that thought. The music itself is far more interesting and enjoyable than the psychological infrastructure around hearing it.

Tima if you were responding to my (ontopic) post I was merely pointing out that dsp correction had aligned more precisely each chanel so the phantom image was more stable and instruments more defined. Not a surprise on reflection but it was quite a gain for modest change in fr.
I would think it is unlikely to achieve this without dsp in the majority of rooms
It lead to instruments sounding more real, natural or whatever descriptor you desire. I was not suggesting it sounded like a live orchestra.
Suspension of belief is a common phrase used in these discussuons ... and so it goes..
P

 

[morricab]

Below is what I had always thought it meant. I guess to continue this thread discussion, we should define the expression. Here is one:

Noun:

1. the most recent stage in the development of a product, incorporating the newest technology, ideas, and features.
   "the state of the art in 3D printing"

In that case, SOTA in audio is at least 50-60 years old. Even plasma tweeters are ancient. Class D dates from the 50-60s.,, etc, So, SOTA in audio is more about what we hear rather than the latest way to make it, which are mostly derivatives of long existing technologies.

 

[tima]

Tima if you were responding to my (ontopic) post I was merely pointing out that dsp correction had aligned more precisely each chanel so the phantom image was more stable and instruments more defined. Not a surprise on reflection but it was quite a gain for modest change in fr.
I would think it is unlikely to achieve this without dsp in the majority of rooms
It lead to instruments sounding more real, natural or whatever descriptor you desire. I was not suggesting it sounded like a live orchestra.
Suspension of belief is a common phrase used in these discussuons ... and so it goes..
P

Hi pjwd - yes I understand your post although I was not responding to it or talking about dsp or thinking you referred to live music. So, no worries.

I was posting about the phrase 'suspension of disbelief'. As far as comparators, go with whatever you think you believe you are hearing but are not. For me there is reproduced music and music that is not reproduced.

Regardless of its use in discussion, 'suspension of disbelief' is a banal, clunky phrase found in audio reviews and verbal forum puffery. We know we are listening to stereo equipment - no need to say more than 'it's sounds natural' or 'it sounds realistic', etc, to communicate effectively. I used to use the phrase myself.

Trying to parse it, the phrase 'suspension of disbelief' is odd or at least it makes me uncomfortable trying to think about it. On the one hand it sounds like an activity - suspension of my disbelief. On the other hand what is it that I disbelieve that for now I do not believe? Er...what? What it intends (I think) is: I no longer believe I am listening to a recording, or I no longer believe I am listening to a stereo.

It does not tell us what is your experience, only what it is not. Saying 'suspension of disbelief' Is almost like a double negative that offers little information.

 

[Hear Here]

Back to SOTA/DSP if you ever have a chance have a listen to these .. they are superb
View attachment 101402
On room correction a friend who is familiar with acourate showed me just yesterday just what it could do. I was very sceptical that you could measure and correct down to low frequency in a room given all the chaos of reflected sound but clearly there are some clever algorithms in this program . My room is very symmetrical and correlation of speakers was around 90% within 1db. I would have assumed it was better but all the small variations of furniture , wall finishes etc. make quite a difference The program made all these minor adjustments to equalize outputs and the increased separation and deliniation of instruments and sparkling clarity did indeed enhance the suspension of belief . A way bigger improvement than some new kit. For anyone going full digital I believe dsp crossovers and room correction is going to be unbeatable . As always implementation is everything and a good room acoustic is a great foundation. Both are not trivial tasks
Cheers
Phil

Those really are crazy-looking beasts. Sort of Open Baffle without the baffle!

They surely couldn't work without DSP, even if it's just used to flatten the frequency response.

 

[pjwd]

Those really are crazy-looking beasts. Sort of Open Baffle without the baffle!

They surely couldn't work without DSP, even if it's just used to flatten the frequency response.

They sound sublime and of course rely on dsp .. multi amps and dacs ..but the truth is most dipoles really need dsp or active xover to achieve a smooth full range fr .
The mid tweeter baffle would help a bit but I cant get my head around the woofers ( quadripole I think) ... I have a suspicion that they create a "virtual baffle" with cancelation at the rear of each driver
Phil

 

[bonzo75]

Hi pjwd - yes I understand your post although I was not responding to it or talking about dsp or thinking you referred to live music. So, no worries.

I was posting about the phrase 'suspension of disbelief'. As far as comparators, go with whatever you think you believe you are hearing but are not. For me there is reproduced music and music that is not reproduced.

Regardless of its use in discussion, 'suspension of disbelief' is a banal, clunky phrase found in audio reviews and verbal forum puffery. We know we are listening to stereo equipment - no need to say more than 'it's sounds natural' or 'it sounds realistic', etc, to communicate effectively. I used to use the phrase myself.



It does not tell us what is your experience, only what it is not. Saying 'suspension of disbelief' Is almost like a double negative that offers little information.

I think Suspension of disbelief is a fine phrase. There are things that make us feel comfortable to our real sound template and things that don't, and all he means by suspension of disbelief is that he gets to a point where he is willing to accept this as a proxy to satisfy his real sound template.

I don't see why we have to force people to change their phraseology instead of trying to understand what they mean

 

[wil]

I think Suspension of disbelief is a fine phrase. There are things that make us feel comfortable to our real sound template and things that don't, and all he means by suspension of disbelief is that he gets to a point where he is willing to accept this as a proxy to satisfy his real sound template.

I don't see why we have to force people to change their phraseology instead of trying to understand what they mean

Yes, I want to sit in my listening chair and reflect on whether my disbelief is in a suspended state— or maybe it just went kerplunct to the floor.

Personally, I’m fine being in a state of believing that my electronics and transducers are allowing me to deeply connect to music. That is , they aren’t getting in the way.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, I want to sit in my listening chair and reflect on wether my disbelief is in a suspended state— or maybe it just went kerplunct to the floor.

Personally, I’m fine being in a state of believing that my electronics and transducers are allowing me to deeply connect to music. That is , they aren’t getting in the way.

The term “suspension of disbelief” is just another abomination of the English language that I would like to believe I’ll never hear again.

Well, someone can use EE, if pjwd wants to use something else, it should be fine. This is an international forum, different people use different phrases

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i use 'suspension of disbelief" as a descriptor since the whole idea behind my hobby efforts; room, gear and media, is to bring reproduced music to a point where the reproduction process is overall least evident......to me. the process is out of the way of the music. i'm not going to step on toes about how that perspective guides my path.

suspension of disbelief = real enough. interchangeable terms in my personal lexicon.

i do find that my personal satisfaction and pleasure quotient is greatly enhanced when i'm living in that 'suspension of disbelief' musical space. and i'm an addict of that.

where is the point where things seem to cross over the threshold? that's where i use that term. i'm not writing a doctoral thesis or white paper for peer review. i'm just hanging out posting about stuff.