Does Everything Make a Difference?

[henrich3]

How do you tell the difference between just believing and just wanting to believe?
How do you tell the difference between hearing a difference and thinking we can hear a difference?
What a silly thread.

Is it a silly thread, or do you just want to believe that it's a silly thread?

 

[henrich3]

Henrich
Your post raises, (or should I say re-raises) a topic that has been discussed many times over many years here on WBF. Here's an ancient post from 2010 along the same lines; namely, most/many/all? enjoyable systems have a frequency response at the listening system that is not flat, but rather simulates the famous B&K microphone curve or other similar curves such as the Harmon curve that are somewhat similar to the one you posted.

DSP- one person's experience

DSP- One person’s experience Among the very few premises to which all audiophiles would surely agree, is that good sound is often largely determined by the quality of the room in which the sound is being reproduced. Not far behind that premise is the general agreement that the nature of the...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Welcome to the "flat is not where it's at" club! One does not necessarily need DSP to get there as many roads lead to Rome. (FYI, I moved on from a DSP-based system many years ago). Enjoy the journey.
Marty

I just read your linked post. Good stuff. Of course DSP room correction systems are more sophisticated now than they were back in 2010, but the general concepts haven't changed. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Mcsnare]

I have cycled in and out of being an everything-matters, True Believer or a judgmental, skeptic, nonbeliever. I didn't start as a nonbeliever and became a believer, and that was the end of it. No, I've gone back and forth over many years time.

My own experiences, mainly taken from more rigorously controlled studio tests, have told me that it's mostly a dance between the event and the perceiver of that event.
At a quantum physics level, when we listen to an audio system play a recording, the very act of listening has to influence the event and how we interpret the signals that our ear sends to the brain.
My mental mood, time of day, amount of light in the listening room, whether I'm listening alone or with others, etc., all have more perceived impact on the "sound" of my system than the cables or the type of metal screws that hold the cartridge, or whatever ridiculous but amusing tweaks I'm using or not using.

I'm currently in what I refer to as tweak mode. That means I give myself permission to believe if I hear some small variances in sound (especially in a noncontrolled test), that seems to be the result of a tweak. I just purchased an ADD Powr box that injects sine waves into the circuit that my system is plugged into. It has a very subtle effect that I find very enjoyable and worth the cost of the box. Other system tuning type tweaks I've tried are either below my level of audibility, or are doing nothing, OR I have convinced myself that something is audible, but it may not be significant enough to warrant the cost.

So, for me, the key thing is if someone believes an expensive stone on top of their amplifier sounds better, that is their reality and not, as a matter of course, anyone else's. If I think this black box I bought does something to the music that I like, it doesn't mean it's an immutable scientific truth, but simply my reality.

The universe we manifest into being through our perception is always relativistic and not absolute. If you believe in physics, you might as well leave room for different fuses to sound different to some people, even if you don't hear a change.

 

[treitz3]

Everyone is entitled to their own stance. I can respect that.

With that said, I cannot fathom (me, myself and I only) having my mood sway my listening.

Tom

 

[Gregm]

With that said, I cannot fathom (me, myself and I only) having my mood sway my listening.

Tom

Doesn't it work the other way around though? I.e. listening to happy music fixes the mood sometimes?
Likewise, listening to (Casals play) Bach cello 5 sonata put you in a pensive mood?
Just out of curiosity...

 

[Tangram]

Everyone is entitled to their own stance. I can respect that.

With that said, I cannot fathom (me, myself and I only) having my mood sway my listening.

Tom

I’m surprised by this. Maybe once a month, I’ll pack a listening session in early because I’m just not “feeling it.” Similarly, if for some reason I love the sound of my system one night and not the next, I don’t rip it apart looking for the problem. I just turn it off and go do something else. Miraculously, a break of a night or two “restores” the glorious sound I know my system is capable of. The only thing that’s changed? My mood.

 

[treitz3]

Good morning, @Gregm and @Tangram. Listening to my rig actually does the opposite for me (unless I am already in a great mood). It adjusts my mood to where I yearn to listen. I currently have a client I am working with that (well, let's just say he is a royal PIA) isn't exactly the type of guy that keeps me in a very good mood. I can be wanting to reach through the phone and strangle this cat , I get so angry with him. Infuriated would be a good adjective.

I can walk back to the system and within 5 minutes, I am not even thinking about him because I am so engrossed into the music. The rig just sucks me in to the raw power of the music and there isn't a care in the world at that point.

Greg, I can pretty much listen to anything and get into a pensive mood. Maybe not opera (definitely not opera) and most rap but if it sounds good? I am simply enjoying the tunes. My biggest gripe at that point is when the music stops because until the next song starts? I get back to thinking about things other than the music I was just so captivated and captured with.

I don't even care what language they are singing in. If the music is good? I'm in my happy place. I no longer detect the rig sounding good one day and off the next. I used to, and couldn't tell you exactly what I did to change that aspect, but the rig is consistent from day to day. There are no discernible changes in characteristics or performance.

Tom

 

[wil]

Everyone is entitled to their own stance. I can respect that.

With that said, I cannot fathom (me, myself and I only) having my mood sway my listening.

Tom

Have you ever tried meditation? The discipline of being attentive to music is exactly the same.

I don’t think of “mood” so much effecting the quality of listening, but rather mood can effect the quality of my attention to the music.

I also think the analytic listening audiophiles do, parsing the sonic effect of system changes (particularly tweaks)is the evil twin of attentive listening — similar in some respects on the surface, but a world apart.

 

[henrich3]

I do most of my music listening in my car. Road noise, engine noise, wind noise, and audio system imperfections all conspire to make this an objectively horrible listening experience, yet the music can still transport me to another world & make me happy. The music is the magic.

 

[ThatStereoSound]

I’m surprised by this. Maybe once a month, I’ll pack a listening session in early because I’m just not “feeling it.” Similarly, if for some reason I love the sound of my system one night and not the next, I don’t rip it apart looking for the problem. I just turn it off and go do something else. Miraculously, a break of a night or two “restores” the glorious sound I know my system is capable of. The only thing that’s changed? My mood.

+1 this happens regularly to me if I’m short on sleep. I think it is related to concentration and attention span. If I haven’t been sleeping well, or enough, then I don’t have the patience and focus to listen to my system in the same way which triggers an emotional connection.

 

[Another Johnson]

I can rarely get enough. I’m often disappointed to have to cut things short due to pressing other plans. I am still delighted and in awe much of the time.

In motorcycle sport touring my friends and I would often swap bikes after gas stops saying “A change is as good as a rest.” Carrying this over to my listening, if I’m tired of Hilary Hahn or Vilda Frang, I’ll switch over to Kenny Burrell or Bill Evans. Or maybe a jazz chanteuse. Or prehaps a philharmonic orchestra. Or a Latin great. The possibilities are endless. The clock is my enemy when listening. Even five hour sessions often end reluctantly … and carry over into dreams, or daydreams.

I have a large (organized) collection of hard media, but streaming has only made this better. I can instantly pull up new releases, remasters, obscure works that I did not purchase when first released, out takes, bonus tracks …. Streaming makes cutting sessions short even more disappointing.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...I have musician friends who describe "not feeling it" on some particular night, so why not listeners, on the receiving side of that relationship have the possibility of a similar mood? Makes sense. Emotion is such a large part of the dance.

 

[Rensselaer]

Some things matter more, perhaps, depending on the system. A big example of this was when I first explored power conditioners at my local big box chain called A&B Sound (a chain in Western Canada). They had some top Marantz surround receivers and they did demonstrations where they would let you listen and then plugged the amp into the conditioner - the noise floor dropped dramatically. People were shocked and amazed.

I asked them to do the demonstration with Bryston's preamp and power amp combination - zero change. Why? Because Bryston already has a vanishingly low-noise floor.

The walkaway is that with the AVR - you would be a big BIG believer in power conditioners being absolutely critical for good sound. Had you only heard it with Bryston you would be a big believer that power conditioners are hocus pocus snake-oil.

It appears as if A&B Sound was trying to trick you into buying their power conditioners by demonstrating it's magical powers on a carefully pre-selected item: (like the YouTube short video https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Be_8O5L2u0M).

I believe most (if not all) of the tweeks out there are snake oil. Remember when they sold you green felt tips to colour the edge of your CD's "like a whole new upgrade to your system"? And cables with plastic insulation? Doesn't rubber or plastic around the wire make capacitance? Capacitance parallel to the resistance in the wire = low-pass filter, right?

Yes, tweeks can (certainly not always) often make some aspect of your sound different, but better?

The thing IMHO which always brings the greatest improvement of all to my sound system has been a well recorded record. "Like a whole new upgrade." Anything short of that isn't worth the price of the clutter.

 

[bonzo75]

...I have musician friends who describe "not feeling it" on some particular night, so why not listeners, on the receiving side of that relationship have the possibility of a similar mood? Makes sense. Emotion is such a large part of the dance.

playing is different. For example professional orchestra players like LSO often tour a lot and are tired. They also click with some conductors and don’t like some visiting ones. They can be off and on. In terms of work, you can’t be at the same level each day.

with listening, as a hobby, that is different. Also, you don’t have to make a judgement in one moment. You are allowed retakes.

 

[Another Johnson]

I don't even care what language they are singing in. If the music is good? I'm in my happy place.

I agree … but this language issue was a factor in my gear churning these past several years.

I had long been committed to CJ for amps, preamps, and phono preamps. I had a TEA1, ET7s2, and pair of LP275Ms factory upgraded to KT120s in one of my listening rooms. I thought I was in heaven.

I ran across a super deal on a used ARC LS28 and bought it with the intention of flipping it. Before trying to sell it, I swapped it into the ET7s2 spot to listen to it.

I was literally stunned by the fact that I could more clearly understand German lyrics. German is not my first language and I have always attributed my difficulty in understanding Wagnerian operas (just an example) to my lack of German language listening skills. But with the LS28, the words were clear.

I had it upgraded to LS28SE. Clearer still. I eventually replaced all my CJ gear with current ARC Reference series. I am still using a Reference Phono 3 SE, but with the tube availability in play, I’ve switched amp and preamp to Burmester Top Line.

I guess my point is that I can enjoy foreign language vocals just as Tom can. But also that electronic gear that allows a language that you know to be more clearly understood brings you closer to the performance than one that obscures language cues.

Were it not for that lowly used LS28, I’d have continued in bliss with CJ, accepting the euphonious distortion without even recognizing it.

 

[bonzo75]

This thread is terrific. But you are forgetting a few things.

• The limits of human hearing.
• The limits of human perception
• The effects of aging on hearing ability

You guys carry on.

this might be philosophically the deepest of recent posts on the forum

 

[Another Johnson]

this might be philosophically the deepest of recent posts on the forum

I agree … and would add that we can only speak about what we hear ourselves. One cannot tell another what the other hears, or how it should affect them.

 

[thedudeabides]

Only if you are obsessive about this hobby and unwilling or unable to say your system sounds good enough and want to just relax and enjoy the music. I am well past the want or need to buy stuff except for music. But I do understand that this hobby is like drugs and can be very addictive.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

playing is different

...yes, certainly playing and listening are different, albeit related. As are playing for work and listening for fun. The thrust of my point was that being tired, distracted, full-bellied, or whatever, can impact both playing and listening. I wasn't trying to examine the specific reasons why, only making the point that there are aspects (generically) that may make a performance *or* a listening session less than stellar.

 

[Zuman]

The more I listen, the more confounded I am by perceived changes in the sound quality of my system when I have made no changes. And it's not just related to my mood, atmospheric conditions, what I'm wearing, or (as far as I know), my physical health. My power supply is robust and consistent. I played in a range of musical groups for many years, I attend live concerts - both acoustic and amplified - and I'm an experienced hifi listener.
I quickly recognized the difference that switching from my NAD M32 amp to my Modwright KWH 225i made, and that improvement has continued to be consistent, but there are days when the same piece of music sounds open, three-dimensional, and engaging, and other days when it's just "there."
Because of this, I don't trust my ability to evaluate "tweaks" except over the long term.