Aesthetix Io Users Group

[OGH]

I am now testing with the Sovtek LPS remaining in the first gain stage, since they have the best noise performance so far. Testing with a db meter, not just my ears, is very useful.

I have pulled out the JJs in the second stage, and inserted the four Telefunkens I used in the first stage, instead. I hear their noise also in the second stage, but now reduced, maybe ca 50 percent less. Not sure, will this be better, overall, than the most low noise solution I have found so far (new production LPS + JJ in all three gain stages). Music testing remains.

I would like to retain the NOS sound if possible, but with lower noise. I have tested three quads of NOS – Telefunken, Telefunken extra (measuring weaker), and RCA/Motorola. They are all noisy however, in the first gain stage – and maybe also for the second or third gain stages. This remains to be seen (heard).

 

[oldvinyl]

Oldvinyl - thanks for the diagrams. So, to replicate the situation in the Io, the first gain stage tube noise level will be multiplied by the two next stages, with a total of 1000 x signal / including noise amplification. So it is not that the tubes in the first stage are especially 'stressed', but only that whatever goes on there, is very strongly amplified later. Correct? And the net result of this, is that the tube noise level in the first stage is very critical, while not so much in the later stages - and least in the third stage I presume. These are more "forgiving".
Audioquest4life - I hope the MaxiPre does the job especially in terms of noise. My Beck RM1 is flexible and convenient (also, good support), but doesn't tell me much about the actual noise when I try the tube in the Io.

OGH - yes, correct.

 

[oldvinyl]

I am now testing with the Sovtek LPS remaining in the first gain stage, since they have the best noise performance so far. Testing with a db meter, not just my ears, is very useful.

I have pulled out the JJs in the second stage, and inserted the four Telefunkens I used in the first stage, instead. I hear their noise also in the second stage, but now reduced, maybe ca 50 percent less. Not sure, will this be better, overall, than the most low noise solution I have found so far (new production LPS + JJ in all three gain stages). Music testing remains.

I would like to retain the NOS sound if possible, but with lower noise. I have tested three quads of NOS – Telefunken, Telefunken extra (measuring weaker), and RCA/Motorola. They are all noisy however, in the first gain stage – and maybe also for the second or third gain stages. This remains to be seen (heard).

OGH - please note that there are tube selection/placement recommendations from Aesthetix in the Io documentation on their web site. The LP/LPS is not recommended in V3/V4 or V5/V6 positions. Also, you could call Aesthetix for their latest thinking on tube selection. They do sell screened and selected tubes - highly worth it if you are seeking to lower noise.

Have you followed any of the other recommendations in this thread to address the noise?

 

[OGH]

Oldvinyl - thanks - I am breathing more easily now. I hope my "layman" testing can contribute, to the thread.

 

[dan31]

A few Io owners have battled mysterious noise only to find out it was solved by checking the lay of various cables at the back of the Io. Check the phono cables and output interconnects and how they are oriented to the power umbilical's and each other. Probably nothing but it has solved noise issues in the past.

 

[oldvinyl]

A few Io owners have battled mysterious noise only to find out it was solved by checking the lay of various cables at the back of the Io. Check the phono cables and output interconnects and how they are oriented to the power umbilical's and each other. Probably nothing but it has solved noise issues in the past.

Dan - good reminder! Signal cables should be perpendicular to power cables due to electrical/magnetic interference.

 

[oldvinyl]

Oldvinyl - thanks - I am breathing more easily now. I hope my "layman" testing can contribute, to the thread.

OGH - actually, your method for measuring noise is quite effective. The only thing to note is that when the gain is increased (turn up the volume) the noise will correspondingly increase.


The other question for you - does your Io have volume controls? If so, do you connect directly to your amps?

I noticed in your signature line that you have a tube based preamp (I think). It could also be the culprit; or at least a contributor to noise.

I have the volume controls in my Io and connect directly to my amps.

 

[dan31]

Question to anyone using a preamp with your Io. I am using a lyra kleos with 0.5 mv output. I have plenty of gain. My Io is without volume control so gain is set using the jumpers inside the unit. The Io is one step down from the highest gain. I am never near 1/2 volume on my preamp. When listening I'm usually about 1/3 volume. My preamp is a Spectral DMC 30SS s2. I was considering lowering the gain on the Io so I can get my preamp closer to its unity gain setting. Obviously this involves pulling out the Io out and removing the cage screws to lower the output jumper. I would clean the pins and give it some tlc. I could also consider alternate tube types that have lower gain. Anyone play with gain staging to optimize s/n? Thanks

 

[audioquest4life]

I have had good luck using a separate preamp (Octave Jubilee) with the Io. I am using a 68db gain with a .4mv cartridge (SS Hyperion) and my volume can go up almost half way, but it’s ear bleed time at that loudness level. I have 101db speakers. I also have high and low gain settings on the preamp which the designer built in for low/high efficiency speakers. It has been great with cartridge swaps, because I feel that I have some extra options to experiment with for overall gain when swapping out cartridges.

I would make a bold jump and move down to 62db to see how that will work for you.

 

[OGH]

Oldvinyl - LP and LPS Sovtek postions - yes I have seen this. OK in the first gain stage, but don't use in the second or third. (Although my diagram only has this info for Sovtek LP, not LPS - I guess it is the same).
I agree that selected tubes from Aesthetix are worth it. I compare my NOS tube sets to factory selected JJ and LPS. Maybe "standard

 

[OGH]

I was saying...standard new production tubes (LPS, JJ83s, etc) perhaps varies a lot in the relevant noise level (I have mainly used those selected by Aesthetix in the Io), not off the shelf, so I don't fully know.

Preamp and gain matching - I have Io with volume controls, and get the best sound at around three o'clock, or a bit more, and then the Einstein preamp at around 11 o'clock, which I think is close to unity gain. This is with a 0.56 mv cartridge. No problem (except when tubes get noisy).

Mysterious noise - yes, it happens. Note that my testing now is limited to the constant background noise in the tubes themselves - not influenced by cables etc (or not much). But I do hear a noise, a slight hum, that comes and goes a bit, mainly in one channel. This happens whatever tubes are used, so it is something else. It is more like a note, or specific frequency, rather than the full band frequency of typical background tube noise. I have found that the note = middle A on the piano, or 440 hz. Perhaps someone has an idea, what it could be. (Note: power is 220-240 volts, here in Norway). I don't hear it from the aux input (my DAC).

 

[oldvinyl]

I was saying...standard new production tubes (LPS, JJ83s, etc) perhaps varies a lot in the relevant noise level (I have mainly used those selected by Aesthetix in the Io), not off the shelf, so I don't fully know.

Preamp and gain matching - I have Io with volume controls, and get the best sound at around three o'clock, or a bit more, and then the Einstein preamp at around 11 o'clock, which I think is close to unity gain. This is with a 0.56 mv cartridge. No problem (except when tubes get noisy).

Mysterious noise - yes, it happens. Note that my testing now is limited to the constant background noise in the tubes themselves - not influenced by cables etc (or not much). But I do hear a noise, a slight hum, that comes and goes a bit, mainly in one channel. This happens whatever tubes are used, so it is something else. It is more like a note, or specific frequency, rather than the full band frequency of typical background tube noise. I have found that the note = middle A on the piano, or 440 hz. Perhaps someone has an idea, what it could be. (Note: power is 220-240 volts, here in Norway). I don't hear it from the aux input (my DAC).

OGH - as a thought experiment, try the Io direct to your amp. That will tell you whether there is a ground loop with the preamp causing the hum. If the hum is not from a ground loop, then clean all the AC plugs and IEC connectors. Poor AC connection can exacerbate hum problems. Other sources can be coupling through the tone arm leads. Make sure that there is adequate spacing between components if there is not adequate shielding.

Also- you were correct. V1 and V2 use their internal dual triodes in parallel. That increases their gain a bit and helps sound quality. My diagram is not correct. Working to get that figured out. The internal parallel connection of the dual triodes does not stress the tube. Overall, the noise in a preamp is most influenced by the noise in the first stage.

You can also try the Io at 11 am or noon volume setting, then adjust volume with the preamp. That can lower tube noise a lot.

To emphasize- the Io with volume controls does not need an external preamp. Try it direct. To my taste, the Io is much clearer and transparent without a preamp.

 

[OGH]

Oldvinyl - check the Io direct to the amps - good idea, I will, since it has been a while since I last did it.

Some details of my earlier testing with / without a preamp may be of interest.

In principle, I fully agree that the Io can sound great direct to the amp(s). So, with the luxury of volume controls and an aux input, it can be used as a combined phono and linestage preamp. No need for a preamp - maybe.

I tested this quite thoroughly, some years ago. What I found was a plus and minus effect of connecting Io direct to the amp vs going through a preamp.

Especially, with my former Krell FPB600 amp, the Io direct added a nice touch of human feeling - or, should we say, tube sound - a clear plus effect, in that s-state context. So, for ten years, I used the Io direct. Meanwhile, I upgraded to partial Eclipse, and switched to MA-1 amps, where this 'tube touch' was no longer a pressing need, since these amps don't sound solid-state anyway.

I gradually realized that there was something missing from the sound direct from the Io. It was extremely pure and informative, yes. Yet it was also somewhat thin, and even a bit "ghostly" maybe, in my system. So, I tried several mid-level preamps. They did not make it. That is; they did give a plus - a more muscular presentation, more body in the music, no longer thin - yet the minuses were even more evident: they lowered the information and detail, and introduced faults of their own (like s-state sound). With some of them, it felt like my investment in the Io was = money out the window.

It was only when I was lucky to find a used Einstein The tube mk2 for a reasonable price, that I felt OK, now the plusses outweigh the minuses. M Fremer, reviewing the Einstein in Stereophile 2010, felt that it approached the ideal, since it had "no sound of its own". That is not quite what I am hearing, but I understand what he meant - it is not much. Most of the information / detail from the Io is retained, and what is added is a more fully "embodied" presentation.

These results are probably somewhat system-dependent. It may be, that better preamps (Audiquest4life has suggested Octave Jubilee) can reduce the minus side even more (Einstein is a hybrid construction, with a bit of s-state sound from the power supplies, I believe).

I would like to see other Io + preamp users tell of their experience. Maybe, the Io combined with the Callisto, MP1, or a similar top notch preamp is ca all plus, no minus.

 

[OGH]

Tube testing - Sovtek LPs in first gain stage, Telefunken NOS (that got too noisy in that stage) in the second stage. Initial impressions.

First impression: not too bad. Some more noise, but maybe no worry. The plus is a bit more of the Telefunken musical sound. Yet I am somewhat underwhelmed. The first gain stage is clearly more important (ca double?) than the second, in terms of noise. But it is much more important in terms of musicality too. I don't think LPS (or JJ) in the first stage is ideal, although it may be an OK compromise. It is not only the noise which is amplified in the next gain stages - it is their musical shortcomings too.

I am testing, now, with Paul McCartney III. It sounds more musical with the Telefunken tubes in stage two, compared to new production LPS or JJ. Probably with other NOS too. Yet top tier NOS directly in v1-2 seem even more important, in order to draw me into the music. Especially, maybe, with an album like this, where I am quite ambivalent, regarding the content.

So it seems that, with the best tubes in the Io, especially the first gain stage, more of my collection of 1900 LPs become fun and immersive to listen to. With so-so tubes, this proportion is reduced.

 

[oldvinyl]

Oldvinyl - check the Io direct to the amps - good idea, I will, since it has been a while since I last did it.

Some details of my earlier testing with / without a preamp may be of interest.

In principle, I fully agree that the Io can sound great direct to the amp(s). So, with the luxury of volume controls and an aux input, it can be used as a combined phono and linestage preamp. No need for a preamp - maybe.

I tested this quite thoroughly, some years ago. What I found was a plus and minus effect of connecting Io direct to the amp vs going through a preamp.

Especially, with my former Krell FPB600 amp, the Io direct added a nice touch of human feeling - or, should we say, tube sound - a clear plus effect, in that s-state context. So, for ten years, I used the Io direct. Meanwhile, I upgraded to partial Eclipse, and switched to MA-1 amps, where this 'tube touch' was no longer a pressing need, since these amps don't sound solid-state anyway.

I gradually realized that there was something missing from the sound direct from the Io. It was extremely pure and informative, yes. Yet it was also somewhat thin, and even a bit "ghostly" maybe, in my system. So, I tried several mid-level preamps. They did not make it. That is; they did give a plus - a more muscular presentation, more body in the music, no longer thin - yet the minuses were even more evident: they lowered the information and detail, and introduced faults of their own (like s-state sound). With some of them, it felt like my investment in the Io was = money out the window.

It was only when I was lucky to find a used Einstein The tube mk2 for a reasonable price, that I felt OK, now the plusses outweigh the minuses. M Fremer, reviewing the Einstein in Stereophile 2010, felt that it approached the ideal, since it had "no sound of its own". That is not quite what I am hearing, but I understand what he meant - it is not much. Most of the information / detail from the Io is retained, and what is added is a more fully "embodied" presentation.

These results are probably somewhat system-dependent. It may be, that better preamps (Audiquest4life has suggested Octave Jubilee) can reduce the minus side even more (Einstein is a hybrid construction, with a bit of s-state sound from the power supplies, I believe).

I would like to see other Io + preamp users tell of their experience. Maybe, the Io combined with the Callisto, MP1, or a similar top notch preamp is ca all plus, no minus.

OGH - what I was actually referring to is whether the preamp added the noise you are hearing. Adding another component such as a preamp adds another set of cables, power supply, more tubes, AC grounds - which could introduce a ground loop (depending on AC wiring and connections). Trying the Io direct without preamp would immediately let you know whether the preamp is the cause of the hum you are hearing. I do not have hum in my system.

I have not used the Io with a preamp. As you say - the end result is system dependent, including amps, speakers and cables. I did try my CD player through the Io line level input, but prefer CD driving amps directly. My amps have volume controls, so it is easy to use them direct with a CD player. In general, I find that direct connection from Io to amp sounds best (in my system). It is very transparent and has more clarity. My system is well balanced top to bottom, so it is not missing (or I am not missing) any bass or mid-range without a preamp. But then, I have spent over 20 years getting it to sound that way.

 

[OGH]

Oldvinyl - if you have amps with volume controls, you already have a (rudimentary maybe) preamp function - I guess? My Ma-1 amps (and my former Krell FPB600) have no input volume gain control. Can you describe your system some more? Cannot find it, on this forum.

I am not arguing that users have to get a preamp, in order to enjoy the best of the Io. Only, that it is worth checking out. But from my experience, the preamp has to be good, to avoid problems / minuses to this setup.

It is counter-intuitive, in a way, that the Io could sound better with yet another gain stage, before the signal reaches the amp(s). It is not "straight wire with gain" (maybe). Yet the advantages of a preamp (an active preamp, not just passive) has been argued in many threads, here on Audiogon and elsewhere. My experience is the same. The problem is that the preamp needs to be very good, to do the job properly, without messing it up.

 

[OGH]

Preamp adding to noise?

In my case, no. The noise comes from the Io, mostly the first (also second) gain stage - no doubt about it, according to my testing. I can turn up my preamp to a very high level, much higher than I would ever play music, and the noise is still very low (+1 for the construction of the Einstein). So, mixing the volumes on the Io, and the Einstein volume, for lowest noise, I can turn the Einstein up, no problem. Yet thereby I miss the Io sound, and get more of the Einstein sound, which is not as good. The sound is best when the Io runs at about two thirds to three quarters of its volume (with my Lyra Atlas output), and Einstein just giving it a "further lift" or "boost". In the helper role, not the main gain stage role.

So even if I can "curb" tube noise from the Io by turning the volumes down and the Einstein up, this is not optimal. Maybe we can compare to lenses in a telescope or camera. Or the rule of "trickle down" from the source to the later stages in the chain. The Io, in my system, is the best "lens" I have. The more it takes precedence, up to a point, the better the sound. If I turn it down, I hear more of later gain stages in the preamp - in my case, Einstein - which are not on the same level, especially if they are only given low-level input from the Io. So, the first and most informative / detailed "lens" needs to be tuned first, to get the best focus, and then, this needs to be focused along with the secondary "lens", the preamp.

 

[audioquest4life]

I received a new batch of low noise and matched Sovtek 12AX7LPS and Gold Lion equivalents. It will be about 4 hours before I get to test them due to some wife errands I have to do. Happy wife happy life, LOL.

@OGH,

Your impression about the LPS used in the first gain stage and your remarks about the harmony of the Telefunkens has given me an idea. After reading Oldvinyl‘s data points about the various gain stages in the Io, I am going to do a single vice a pair swap into the V1 locations to see how it sounds. I did this experiment years ago but did not have great tubes to see how it sounds. You may want to try a tele in the same way. As long as the technical parameters of the tube are the same, you should have no problems. I will also try this as well later today.

Preamps...yes, that is the question of the day. And the subject is covered enough with lots of pros and cons. At the end of the day, and what I take away from the vast majority of discussions, is that using a preamp is system and user dependent.

Ironically, I tested the Einstein years ago and quickly concluded that it had that somewhat of that SS nature that you spoke of. Nope, not for me. To clarify, it did sound good for the type of topology that is used with that system. Probably one of the finest sounding for this type of topology. It’s sonic character did not mesh with my own formulated opinions of what I liked in tube sound. This was compared to the Octave HP500SE that I owned at the time with built in phono stage. I also owned the Io. When I heard a friend systems who had the entire Octave Jubilee system, I was hooked. I was able to find a gently used Jubilee preamp and the rest is history. My friend had a Pass Labs top of the line phono stage and we both agreed that each type of phono system, tube or solid state have their own sonic signature traits and strength.

I cannot wait to test these new tubes.

 

[Kcin]

I received a new batch of low noise and matched Sovtek 12AX7LPS and Gold Lion equivalents. It will be about 4 hours before I get to test them due to some wife errands I have to do. Happy wife happy life, LOL.

@OGH,

Your impression about the LPS used in the first gain stage and your remarks about the harmony of the Telefunkens has given me an idea. After reading Oldvinyl‘s data points about the various gain stages in the Io, I am going to do a single vice a pair swap into the V1 locations to see how it sounds. I did this experiment years ago but did not have great tubes to see how it sounds. You may want to try a tele in the same way. As long as the technical parameters of the tube are the same, you should have no problems. I will also try this as well later today.

Preamps...yes, that is the question of the day. And the subject is covered enough with lots of pros and cons. At the end of the day, and what I take away from the vast majority of discussions, is that using a preamp is system and user dependent.

Ironically, I tested the Einstein years ago and quickly concluded that it had that somewhat of that SS nature that you spoke of. Nope, not for me. To clarify, it did sound good for the type of topology that is used with that system. Probably one of the finest sounding for this type of topology. It’s sonic character did not mesh with my own formulated opinions of what I liked in tube sound. This was compared to the Octave HP500SE that I owned at the time with built in phono stage. I also owned the Io. When I heard a friend systems who had the entire Octave Jubilee system, I was hooked. I was able to find a gently used Jubilee preamp and the rest is history. My friend had a Pass Labs top of the line phono stage and we both agreed that each type of phono system, tube or solid state have their own sonic signature traits and strength.

I cannot wait to test these new tubes.

I agree that a preamp used within the context of the Io is user dependent. I have used the Io with volume controls for some years and have experimented with other pre amps in the chain including Calisto.

I have said elsewhere whether it works for you or not will be based on the overall gain structure of your cartridge-Io-amp-speaker- room interface. Every time I tried with a preamp of any type- I could not live with it vis a vis the Io with VC alone.

Of course, your mileage may vary. On tubes- NOS has always had better tonality, texture and sense of space for me. Quiet ones are possible, either you have stock to sort through your own or you pay someone to do it for you.

The LPS in 1 &2 are the best bet for long term noise free performance for current production. At the end of the day all the Sovtek types have a signature and the LPS is the best of them.. Sovtek now have a 7025 which is new that some of my contacts say is very good and not noisy ... maybe an alternative?

I have Teslovaks from the 70's that are very good but not as good as Telefunken. Failing all that Ei's from the 80's can be quite good and are not that expensive... maybe hard to find now possibly because charlatans are labeling them as Telelfunkens!

For OGH I would definitely consider paying someone to noise test 4 Telefunkens ( if they suit you) for V1&V2 x2 . The Io is like an F1 car. Extraordinary , however, requires your full attention and the best of everything.

 

[oldvinyl]

Preamp adding to noise?

In my case, no. The noise comes from the Io, mostly the first (also second) gain stage - no doubt about it, according to my testing. I can turn up my preamp to a very high level, much higher than I would ever play music, and the noise is still very low (+1 for the construction of the Einstein). So, mixing the volumes on the Io, and the Einstein volume, for lowest noise, I can turn the Einstein up, no problem. Yet thereby I miss the Io sound, and get more of the Einstein sound, which is not as good. The sound is best when the Io runs at about two thirds to three quarters of its volume (with my Lyra Atlas output), and Einstein just giving it a "further lift" or "boost". In the helper role, not the main gain stage role.

So even if I can "curb" tube noise from the Io by turning the volumes down and the Einstein up, this is not optimal. Maybe we can compare to lenses in a telescope or camera. Or the rule of "trickle down" from the source to the later stages in the chain. The Io, in my system, is the best "lens" I have. The more it takes precedence, up to a point, the better the sound. If I turn it down, I hear more of later gain stages in the preamp - in my case, Einstein - which are not on the same level, especially if they are only given low-level input from the Io. So, the first and most informative / detailed "lens" needs to be tuned first, to get the best focus, and then, this needs to be focused along with the secondary "lens", the preamp.

OGH - I was trying to provide a useful suggestion to isolating the cause of the mysterious noise and hum you described. The theory is - eliminate variables until the source/cause is isolated. Then, address the cause.

Any additional component will add their own flavor and even noise.

Flavor to taste!