Aesthetix Io Users Group
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thank you guys.
i'm entering a serious tube rolling realm i've dabbled in for brief moments, but mostly avoided in the past. hope i've got the patience for it. and that my system is not too involved with too many noise sources. it's always been remarkably quiet, but has not had anything like an Io Eclipse to find and amplify that noise.
i'm sure i'll learn plenty.
i'm entering a serious tube rolling realm i've dabbled in for brief moments, but mostly avoided in the past. hope i've got the patience for it. and that my system is not too involved with too many noise sources. it's always been remarkably quiet, but has not had anything like an Io Eclipse to find and amplify that noise.
i'm sure i'll learn plenty.
I personally consider the whole tube rolling exercise for the Io optional. Jim White respects the endeavor, but does not find it necessary.
Not knowing whether I will wish to engage in Io tube rolling in the future I have purchased over the last several years numerous NOS tubes recommended by Albert Porter, Greg Beron and others. If I choose to wade into tube rolling in the future, I will have an inventory of tubes to do so.
Not knowing whether I will wish to engage in Io tube rolling in the future I have purchased over the last several years numerous NOS tubes recommended by Albert Porter, Greg Beron and others. If I choose to wade into tube rolling in the future, I will have an inventory of tubes to do so.
i'm sure i will stay on the most outside path i can that avoids the noise issues. tube rolling is a means to an end, not a place i'm trying to reach. it's not like i have 10 cartridges i need to adjust my system to. and the io will likely only see a percentage of my vinyl listening. so i'm not going to be burning through hours and hours of 'on' time.
If I had a three box Io (nice gear), I'd have a tube tester.
Do either of you have a tube tester?
bought a MaxiPreAmp II yesterday.
i figure it just needs to be in a box for when Jazdoc comes over and needs to test my tubes. i believe in having the right tools on hand for my smart visitors to keep me on the right track. i have my Fluke multi-meter and my Oscilloscope too. i remove all excuses for not fixing stuff.
my network engineer son, and Phd in Physics son--in-law, know all about that.
i'm a very qualified gofer to fetch tools. and stay in my lane.
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I have corroborated the Maxi Pre II with the Vacuum Tube Valley small signal tube analyzer - tests for gain, noise and balance - and the Amplitrex 1000 I have on hand.. They all line up. Trick is with any of them to establish a bogey tube that does what you want and then match all others to that reference. The Maxi Pre II is quick as well.bought a MaxiPreAmp II yesterday.
i figure it just needs to be in a box for when Jazdoc comes over and needs to test my tubes. i believe in having the right tools on hand for my smart visitors to keep me on the right track. i have my Fluke multi-meter and my Oscilloscope too. i remove all excuses for not fixing stuff.
my network engineer son, and Phd in Physics son--in-law, know all about that.
i'm a very qualified gofer to fetch tools. and stay in my lane.
My reference has always been the VTV - which is excellent for small tubes, the Maxi is just quicker and very intuitive.
On the Io, the guys at Aesthetix are really top notch and will do a great job in reviewing your Io. Some things to consider:
* Have them assess the PS caps and change out if necessary- might as well if it is there
* I converted my Io to 2 phono inputs.. with the VC version your loading is on the inside on a pair of output boards per channel- so this is not as convenient as some designs. Once you are settled its ok
* I have never gained any perceivable advantage with balanced in for the phono - YMMV
* If the Eclipse has not been used much at all- be warned that the coupling cap configs in the unit will take 4-500 hrs to break in- really- and it will sound like &^%&$# until it does. It will make you wonder why you did this -- but then, you will be rewarded. Use the granite audio CD, run it in for 2.5 weeks/24hrs before you even assess it. If you feel the need, replace any premium tubes with cheap run in tubes and you will not have burned through your tubes.
*I respect the non tube rollers- but really, it does reach another level with premium NOS tubes in at least V1, V2
* I use mine direct to amps- there is a lot of discussion around this. It really is a system thing. I find that I gain more and loose less going direct. YMMV and you may decide to put a lines stage in between. I have felt no such need.
* I have run .2 mV cartridges with the Io and no real noise issues- although I spend a lot of time on tube selection- Having said all that, there is something about the explosiveness of the GFS on my rig that has much to do with the 3x more output of the GFS- the Io likes that.
* If you are into fuses, the Io responds, but I will leave that for another time... it is definitely ying and yang depending on which models you choose to roll in .
* Everybody I have spoken to indicates much improved performance with custom umbilical's- I have not done this- however, I bought the multipin connector materials and would have to choose the wire for the build. The thought of it though is a lot of work- I have partially figured out the pin outs.. and have not reached out to Aesthetix to see if they would provide the last bit of info. Otherwise, I will have to dig in and figure it out. It may be the next evolution to even greater performance from the Io.
It will be great to get your perspective on this unit once you are up and running- given that you have assembled a world class system with so many other great pieces of analog gear.
Good Luck
No, Tim, I have not gotten a tube tester yet. I've been waiting for Mike to figure out which is the best one, and I figured I would just get whichever one he gets.
(Just kidding, as I learned about Mike's Io decision when Mike posted about it yesterday. But now that he has made a tube tester selection, I figure I will get the same one.)
I ordered my Maxipreamp nearly two weeks ago and no updates on delivery times.
Want to reiterate what Kcin stated about the electronics of the Io when it is refreshed. The new power supplies are extremely quiet to me compared to the older ones, pre 2006, at least. Ask for the power supply upgrade if it does not have it.
Tubes...well, I am in sort of in a running break in update since I had my Io updated to the partial Eclipse without extra phono input or volume. I am happy with the new JJ tubes, except for the ones that were installed I n the V1/V2 position. Those tubes became noisy after nearly two weeks of use. I resorted to low noise and matched Sovtek 12AX7LPS in those positions and have been in musical bliss ever since.
The Io is breaking in nicely and I am enjoying a larger holographic playing field with organic musical qualities that seem to mesmerize me. I do have a confluence of things going on here; new Io, new ICs, new PS Audio P12, and new cartridge, but, all is coming together nicely.
In fact, so much so, I am conflicted on some other mods in the future, either a Axiom or Aguilar tonearm, Jade Platinum or Jade Platinum Diamond, and a slew of Shunyata Sigma power cords. Do I need these? It‘s barely a no answer. I love the sound as is, and that’s my quandary. Might just throw the money into my personal fundme account for either a GT3 or Mclaren. The system as is makes me, my wife, and my friends very happy.
I am using Shunyata Anacondas on the Io right now, which sounds real nice, but, you know, we are always looking for something that is perceived as better. What is better? Is it really better or is it just different? That is the question I struggle with.
I am going to contact Glen later today to discuss the V1/V2 stages.
Want to reiterate what Kcin stated about the electronics of the Io when it is refreshed. The new power supplies are extremely quiet to me compared to the older ones, pre 2006, at least. Ask for the power supply upgrade if it does not have it.
Tubes...well, I am in sort of in a running break in update since I had my Io updated to the partial Eclipse without extra phono input or volume. I am happy with the new JJ tubes, except for the ones that were installed I n the V1/V2 position. Those tubes became noisy after nearly two weeks of use. I resorted to low noise and matched Sovtek 12AX7LPS in those positions and have been in musical bliss ever since.
The Io is breaking in nicely and I am enjoying a larger holographic playing field with organic musical qualities that seem to mesmerize me. I do have a confluence of things going on here; new Io, new ICs, new PS Audio P12, and new cartridge, but, all is coming together nicely.
In fact, so much so, I am conflicted on some other mods in the future, either a Axiom or Aguilar tonearm, Jade Platinum or Jade Platinum Diamond, and a slew of Shunyata Sigma power cords. Do I need these? It‘s barely a no answer. I love the sound as is, and that’s my quandary. Might just throw the money into my personal fundme account for either a GT3 or Mclaren. The system as is makes me, my wife, and my friends very happy.
I am using Shunyata Anacondas on the Io right now, which sounds real nice, but, you know, we are always looking for something that is perceived as better. What is better? Is it really better or is it just different? That is the question I struggle with.
I am going to contact Glen later today to discuss the V1/V2 stages.
Mike Lavigne - from me also, congratulations, hope you enjoy it.
Yes, stock tubes can be very good indeed, with this unit. What we have discussed, above, is making it even better with NOS tubes. However this is not "required". And some new listener reports argue that one should listen more to selected new production tubes, before deciding. Not just because they have lower noise level (if selected for this - in my case, by Aesthetix), but also because they can sound good. Or maybe even very good, given more time and adjustments. There is an ongoing debate, was everything better in the golden NOS period, or is actually some things better with new production tubes.
I am running good new production tubes now, and am often happy with the sound (not always, though). So I fully agree, going into NOS is "optional", you don't need to do it, to get good sound from the Io. Although good NOS tubes often make a big plus. Especially in the first gain stage. If they are silent enough. That's the problem. In my recent experience, when I ask sellers of NOS 12ax7 tubes, to high prices, are these low noise, can you measure this, give me the results please - it is the sellers that get silent. Rather than the tubes.
Yes, stock tubes can be very good indeed, with this unit. What we have discussed, above, is making it even better with NOS tubes. However this is not "required". And some new listener reports argue that one should listen more to selected new production tubes, before deciding. Not just because they have lower noise level (if selected for this - in my case, by Aesthetix), but also because they can sound good. Or maybe even very good, given more time and adjustments. There is an ongoing debate, was everything better in the golden NOS period, or is actually some things better with new production tubes.
I am running good new production tubes now, and am often happy with the sound (not always, though). So I fully agree, going into NOS is "optional", you don't need to do it, to get good sound from the Io. Although good NOS tubes often make a big plus. Especially in the first gain stage. If they are silent enough. That's the problem. In my recent experience, when I ask sellers of NOS 12ax7 tubes, to high prices, are these low noise, can you measure this, give me the results please - it is the sellers that get silent. Rather than the tubes.
I spoke with Glen earlier today and provided him information about the JJ's from Aesthetix getting noisy in the V1/V2 positions. I also explained to Glen that I had replaced the JJ's with Sovtek 12AX7LPS and that things were quiet and sounding great with the Sovtek's. I learned that during the financial meltdown in 2007/2008, that many tube manufactures were traded and sold and that some of the tube magic was lost during that time. This resulted in whole batches of the Sovteks being extremely noisy, to include, ones that Aesthetix had purchased. He was surprised to hear that I had a set of low noise LPS due to Aesthetix's previous experience with the LPS.
BTW, what is the estimated tube life for preamp tubes? I know these are somewhat like lightbulbs, and can go ballistic anytime, but on average, lets say with about 2000 hours per year of use (roughly 50 forty minute LP's), how long can we expect a set of tubes to last? I have my clock running every time the system is turned on and so far, I have about 280 hours and counting. I need to pick up my music listening game.
BTW, what is the estimated tube life for preamp tubes? I know these are somewhat like lightbulbs, and can go ballistic anytime, but on average, lets say with about 2000 hours per year of use (roughly 50 forty minute LP's), how long can we expect a set of tubes to last? I have my clock running every time the system is turned on and so far, I have about 280 hours and counting. I need to pick up my music listening game.
These are the strategies I use to reduce noise in the Io (not in any particular order):
- replaced umbilical cables from power supplies to phono stage with better wire and all shielded twisted pairs
- remove oxidation from IEC connectors, tube sockets, power cables (Flitz, Kontak, Caig)
- clean umbilical pins with circuit cleaning spray
- clean tube pins with Kontak
- replace power supply capacitors with the newest ones from Aesthetix
- use selected tubes graded for noise and microphonics; 6681's are great in the power supplies, 7025's are great in the phono section. 5692's (RCA red base) in place of 6SN7. Tubes selected by Aesthetix are also very good - they do good testing and screening.
- higher output moving coil cartridge (Goldfinger is much quieter than prior Benz Micro LPS)
Other helpful tweak - replace EL34 with KT-66. This requires a standoff for the power supply cover since the KT-66 is taller than the EL-34.
I have my power supplies on the lower 2 shelves of my rack, then the turntable power supply, then the Io phono stage, then the turntable. No noise in that configuration.
I have no noise issues with latest model Io with stock tubes and a Benz LPS
That is an interesting perspective on Sovtek LPS. I could say the same for JJ through much of their cycle over the past years.
So did Glenn offer any advise on mfr types by position or did he avoid that conversation?
It appears that Aesthetix is using JJ now for VI an V2 exclusively On estimated life, like most things , the answer is , it depends on several factors.
The plate voltage and quiescent current of the tube come into play thus its dissipation in watts -Some preamps are beasts on the operating points of small signal tubes. The other thing is, well , as you figured out some tubes can take it and some can not.
I would say that if you got 2 years of normal use from new production you are doing well. Some NOS premium types claim 10,000 hours - you can do the math. I can have TFK go for several years with no appreciable degradation in the Io in any spot.
The good news is the new production is cheap. The issue I always have though is dealing with problems and gremlins with them is just a pain so I avoid them unless the time comes when I have to use them... then it may be the Io goes for a walk and I just listen to my Roon Streaming and forget about all the tension and fuss!
Agreed. It has been over 7 years since I used the LPS. What I was referring to was that with the lower output cartridge, I would sometimes go past 3:00 on the volume controls (my Io has the built-in volume control). Once past 3:00 setting, I could hear some tube rush - but only when music was not playing. When we're talking microvolts input and 4 order of magnitude gain, every couple dB increase in S/N ratio helps.I have no noise issues with latest model Io with stock tubes and a Benz LPS
I have noticed that the new power supply caps really lowered noise floor. Will check if this is still the case that going past 3:00 volume setting still has much tube rush or other noise.
many thanks to you guys and others for taking the time to help me. i've been emailing with Glenn at Aesthetix about the process of going over my Io Eclipse when it arrives there. then i will use this feedback to make sure my Io is at it's best when it's shipped back to me.
lots of tube thoughts to sort out too.
again thank you,
Mike
yes; that would be an option. and it would add tube goodness to the MSB, but also add an element of tube opaqueness too in a relative sense in my system. it is tempting to think about all those tubes added to the MSB transparency. OTOH the MSB Electrostatic Headphone amp is designed to be used directly connected to the MSB dac, so you would not insert the Io in between them.
but also.......
i would give up my remote control. and honestly the dart pre is the most 'not there' pre volume control that there is. the dart pre is very sympathetic to the purity of the MSB. i've compared the MSB into the dart pre to the MSB direct into the dart monos, and the dart pre in the circuit is better. and i doubt that could be said of many, if any, others. none i've heard.
if the dart pre was not sitting there, then i agree the Io Eclipse volume control would be a good option, except that likey the MSB passive volume control internal in the MSB Select II is also a world beater and better.
so as great as the Io volume is; likely it's dart > MSB > Io.
all that said; the Io Eclipse with volume control and an analog input would be a wonderful center piece of a system with a single additional source. and bang for the buck likely unassailable. the dart pre is $40k, the MSB, even for the basic single dac and one power supply is $89k.
this is all conjecture on my part as i've not yet had the Io Eclipse in my system. the reality could be quite different.
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Although Glen did not specifically recommend a particular brand for the V1/V2, he did state that tubes are subject to end of life unexpectedly even if properly tested and burned in beforehand. We know that as audio enthusiasts, we have to plan for the inevitability of this happening to any our tubes throughout the system. Glen did say from a business perspective it is safer and less costly to use the JJ‘s as a result of the bad experiences with LP’s in the past. YMMV.That is an interesting perspective on Sovtek LPS. I could say the same for JJ through much of their cycle over the past years.
So did Glenn offer any advise on mfr types by position or did he avoid that conversation?
It appears that Aesthetix is using JJ now for VI an V2 exclusively On estimated life, like most things , the answer is , it depends on several factors.
The plate voltage and quiescent current of the tube come into play thus its dissipation in watts -Some preamps are beasts on the operating points of small signal tubes. The other thing is, well , as you figured out some tubes can take it and some can not.
I would say that if you got 2 years of normal use from new production you are doing well. Some NOS premium types claim 10,000 hours - you can do the math. I can have TFK go for several years with no appreciable degradation in the Io in any spot.
The good news is the new production is cheap. The issue I always have though is dealing with problems and gremlins with them is just a pain so I avoid them unless the time comes when I have to use them... then it may be the Io goes for a walk and I just listen to my Roon Streaming and forget about all the tension and fuss!
That being said, he did say if you were to find a batch of tubes that you like and they match the specifications for the Io, enjoy.
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