American Sound, "The Absolute Nothing"

[treitz3]

Gentlemen, can we please add a touch more class to the thread? Also, let's lose the "groups" and name calling of said groups. We are better than this.

The ignore feature works wonders, if someone irks your nerve. I highly recommend using it for the betterment of the forum as a whole. Thank you.

Tom

 

[Ron Resnick]

I do not see many modifying Bionors, Diatones, Vitavox, Tannoys, WEs.

I think replacing the crossovers in Tannoy Westminsters with outboard crossovers and greatly upgraded parts is something connoisseurs sometimes do.

Jeff Tyo replaced the crossovers in his JBL Hartsfields, and, I believe, achieved a great improvement in transparency.

It is totally reasonable for you to have the view that you are extremely happy with how your loudspeakers sound so there's no reason even to consider replacing parts or modifying anything. This makes perfect sense to me. (I feel the same way in areas of my system in different contexts. If I'm happy with something, I'm good -- I don't need to keep playing.)

That is one thing. But it seems to me that it is a different thing for you to adopt a dogmatic view against modifications just because David told you modifications are bad.

Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps you have actually auditioned and compared stock, unmodified vintage loudspeakers to reconditioned vintage loudspeakers of the same model, and concluded based on actual listening experience that you indeed prefer the former?

 

[bonzo75]

I did not write that they are not being modified, I wrote that I do not see many being modified as opposed to the many Altecs that are modified.

The only difference is that Bionors available are less in numbers than Tannoy, JBL, and Altec. The Euronor in UK, the one in Paris, the Eurodyn in France, are all modified. Tang's is - waitaminnit, that was David's first modefication project. He even gave Tang different wood panels to try and experiment with the sound.

Tannoys and JBLs and Altecs is a huge modification world out there. The whole french forum of Melaudia is a modification forum. Go to the old audioasylum, Audiokarma, Audioheritage (forum for lansing heritage which is mostly TADs, JBLs, and Altecs)....it's purely modification. You don't see them because you don't look anywhere else.

Why stop at speakers? Almost all vintage TTs are modded. Tang's EMT is modded. David's has phono bypassed to use Lamm phono. Tape decks, TD 124s, Garrards, Lenco, most vintage is modded.

 

[bonzo75]

I need to? Who says?

David helped me assemble the system I now have which I love and have no intention of changing. I feel fortunate to have met him and to have learned what I have from his vast experience and knowledge.

Yes and we understand your reporting is based on friendship rather than sonics.

 

[bonzo75]

. People seem to want those in original, unmodified condition.

Maybe swap your AS 2000 for the original, unmodified AS 1000?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Yes and we understand your reporting is based on friendship rather than sonics.

No. It's crystal clear Peter absolutely and genuinely loves his system. The Vitavox is a perfect sonic and aesthetic solution for Peter's living room.

 

[bonzo75]

No. It's crystal clear Peter absolutely and genuinely loves his system. The Vitavox is a perfect sonic and aesthetic solution for Peter's living room.

When did I mention his personal system? That’s all he reports on?

 

[tima]

You don't see them because you don't look anywhere else.

Sometimes you don't look where you have no interest.

 

[PeterA]

I think replacing the crossovers in Tannoy Westminsters with outboard crossovers and greatly upgraded parts is something connoisseurs sometimes do.

Jeff Tyo replaced the crossovers in his JBL Hartsfields, and, I believe, achieved a great improvement in transparency.

It is totally reasonable for you to have the view that you are extremely happy with how your loudspeakers sound so there's no reason even to consider replacing parts or modifying anything. This makes perfect sense to me. (I feel the same way in areas of my system in different contexts. If I'm happy with something, I'm good -- I don't need to keep playing.)

That is one thing. But it seems to me that it is a different thing for you to adopt a dogmatic view against modifications just because David told you modifications are bad.

Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps you have actually auditioned and compared stock, unmodified vintage loudspeakers to reconditioned vintage loudspeakers of the same model, and concluded based on actual listening experience that you indeed prefer the former?

I had thought I was clear. If one of the rare coveted vintage models sound great, I do not understand why one would modify it. I wrote that I do not see Many people doing that with Bionors, Eurodyns, Diatones, Vitavoxs, Tannoys, or WE. I never mentioned Tyo’s JBLs. I talked to Bonzo about his visit but he said something about Jeff’s speakers having issues at that time. Maybe he fixed them. I know people add super tweeters to those because they only go to 10 or 12 KHz. I would have to hear them before judging.

It is a hobby and people love to tinker and I get that and it is fine. I DO see a lot of modified Altecs. By see I mean videos and reading about them. I do not see nearly as much with those other much more rare and coveted brands unless they are broken and damaged or are missing pieces. Prices reflect condition. There are not many used unmodified complete good condition samples of those others available. I have checked. Altecs sure. The others, not so much. I see the whole industry around modifying vintage horn speakers and some panels. I get it. They want to improve them. It is part of the hobby. My speakers are great just the way they are. I would look elsewhere if I didn’t like the sound.

David Karmeli knows as much or more about this stuff than anyone I know. His opinion has value to me. More than most others in this area. Our values also align in terms of sound quality. Others have other influences. We all have people we trust who have more knowledge and experience than we do. People should do what they want. It is a hobby, but there are those who search out only unmodified rare originals. That is fine too. Sadly, there are not many left. I have one or two on my list for a second system.

 

[tima]

When did I mention his personal system? That’s all he reports on?

That's pretty ironic.

 

[tima]

That is one thing. But it seems to me that it is a different thing for you to adopt a dogmatic view against modifications just because David told you modifications are bad.

Where is the dogmatism in the belief that changing a speaker's parts from original will change its sound?

That idea is not unique to David. To prefer not to modify speakers or to prefer to buy unmodified speakers is not dogmatism, it is personal choice. If you want to modify your speakers, have at it. Neither he nor I are telling anyone what to do.

 

[PeterA]

The only difference is that Bionors available are less in numbers than Tannoy, JBL, and Altec. The Euronor in UK, the one in Paris, the Eurodyn in France, are all modified. Tang's is - waitaminnit, that was David's first modefication project. He even gave Tang different wood panels to try and experiment with the sound.

Tannoys and JBLs and Altecs is a huge modification world out there. The whole french forum of Melaudia is a modification forum. Go to the old audioasylum, Audiokarma, Audioheritage (forum for lansing heritage which is mostly TADs, JBLs, and Altecs)....it's purely modification. You don't see them because you don't look anywhere else.

Why stop at speakers? Almost all vintage TTs are modded. Tang's EMT is modded. David's has phono bypassed to use Lamm phono. Tape decks, TD 124s, Garrards, Lenco, most vintage is modded.

You missed the part about speakers being incomplete. Tang’s speakers had no baffle. You should see David’s storage units full of vintage parts. David also wrote about building different baffles for his Bionors. Like some of those others that are not original, they sounded different. David kept his originals for sound quality reasons. I would love to hear comparisons, but that is never likely to happen.

Cabinets and baffles do matter. There are rebuilds because some of these in original complete condition are so rare. I am not talking JBl or Altec. There are many of those around.

I am very surprised that those three Bionors in Europe were all in original complete condition and then the owners modified them to sound even better. If that is true, then David’s are the only complete originals I have heard and read about, making them even more rare and coveted.

 

[PeterA]

Yes and we understand your reporting is based on friendship rather than sonics.

The reporting in both of my system threads is based on what I actually hear. And if you think I bought my system on friendship rather than sonics, you are grossly mistaken. I would have to think about it, but that may be the oddest thing you have suggested.

The original post reporting on the new turntable and lost subject of this thread, is based completely on what I saw of the prototype as it was made, during the set up, and what I heard.

Your posts about DDK are just as personal as mine are, maybe more so. We just have completely different opinions.

 

[bonzo75]

You missed the part about speakers being incomplete. Tang’s speakers had no baffle. Y

No, the baffle is not made to the spec as per originals, it is made to a slightly smaller size to suit Tang's room. And Tang is supplied with different types of wood so that he can change the sound. If it was only to handle incompleteness, it would have been one baffle to the exact size.

The baffle size is recommended on the klangfilm museum site, and that is the minimum, which is larger than tang’s. But there are many smaller ones of different shapes and sizes you can see on YouTube

 

[PeterA]

Maybe swap your AS 2000 for the original, unmodified AS 1000?

You have to switch to turntables now? I did that comparison and was given the choice to buy either. Not many have had that choice or done the comparison. They were both original and unmodified samples. I chose the latter because it sounds better.

People should read the essay about the Five Beyond Tables. That AS1000 is the best by consensus. The AS2000 is better and the new Abolute Nothing is a couple levels beyond that. Maybe someday you will experience it.

 

[PeterA]

No, the baffle is not made to the spec as per originals, it is made to a slightly smaller size to suit Tang's room. And Tang is supplied with different types of wood so that he can change the sound. If it was only to handle incompleteness, it would have been one baffle to the exact size.

The point is that David had the parts but was missing the baffles. He made a new design. The adjustable wings are for room set up and flexibility. You should ask David about them. Have you heard Tang’s speakers in person?

 

[bonzo75]

You have to switch to turntables now? I did that comparison and was given the choice to buy either. Not many have had that choice or done the comparison. They were both original and unmodified samples. I chose the latter because it sounds better.

People should read the essay about the Five Beyond Tables. That AS1000 is the best by consensus. The AS2000 is better and the new Abolute Nothing is a couple levels beyond that. Maybe someday you will experience it.

You missed the point of the post completely

 

[bonzo75]

Have you heard Tang’s speakers in person?

No. How is this relevant to the discussion? I haven’t commented on their sonics here.

He hasn’t heard them himself for 1.5 years now

 

[PeterA]

When did I mention his personal system? That’s all he reports on?

I reported on the new turntable too. It is the subject of this very thread. Read post #1. Most members here report primarily about their own systems. You are the WBF humble traveling reporter because you do not have your own system to write about. I missed your reports about Rockitman’s and Mik’s systems.

 

[XV-1]

No. How is this relevant to the discussion? I haven’t commented on their sonics here.

He hasn’t heard them himself for 1.5 years now

Ked

Has Tang given up on hifi ?