Analog Magik

I used a statistical distribution when I did this same thing. Since the errors can go both ways (CW and CCW, +/-), tabulate as many such records on a distribution curve and you can and find the mean. Your sample set is pretty small so therefore unreliable, but you could still do the same
 
I used a statistical distribution when I did this same thing. Since the errors can go both ways (CW and CCW, +/-), tabulate as many such records on a distribution curve and you can and find the mean. Your sample set is pretty small so therefore unreliable, but you could still do the same
I have four or five more test records. Maybe more. And I know how to use Excel to do this kind of thing. :D

Although to have a high enough level of confidence the usual metric for sample size is around 30.
 
I have four or five more test records. Maybe more. And I know how to use Excel to do this kind of thing. :D

Although to have a high enough degree of certainty the usual metric for sample size is around 30.
You could also use various pressings to get totally new test record results. For example, the 1981 NAB test record is cut TOTALLY differently than the 1989 pressing of the same record. The 1981 has almost 6 degrees of cutting zenith error! The 1989 has "only" about 1.4 degrees.
 
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Bless you, J.R., your mindset is in data gathering and solving the problem. :) Kudos for that. My problem is that on Sunday I go to a friend’s house with all my tools, including Analog Magik (see how I kept it on topic here ;)), to install and set up a new cart for him. I’ll have to run the same tests on the rest of my test records and hope to run some mean and standard deviation numbers (on such a small sample size) in hopes of deciding which record is “good enough”.
 
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index.php
index.php


The test record I use to set crosstalk/Azimuth is Toshiba LF-90001 at -37.5/-37.5 crosstalk. This results in A average crosstalk of 32.4/33 based on 33 test tracks, so the Toshiba is A pretty good average /midpoint


Post in thread 'Crosstalk measurement - Which record is best?'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...ement-which-record-is-best.43650/post-2118025

Post in thread 'Fun with vinyl measurements'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...un-with-vinyl-measurements.20278/post-2115142
 
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@Balle Clorin, I think the problem is any of us can pick any one we want, with no guarantee any of them are cut correctly.
 
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avantage of that measuring the crosstalk at many points in the audio range brings more accurate results. those were clever people who developed the LP in 1973 there are a lot of good things on the lp that can be used when setting up a cartridge.

Crosstalk attenuation Left to Right, Right to Left At 125, 500, 1000, 4000, 10000 Hz, With announcement
Crosstalk attenuation Left to Right, Right to Left At 125, 500, 1000, 4000, 10000 Hz, With announcement
 
Some are obviously outliers and far off the average. So I rather pick one near the median
Agreed, but determining a median is only as reasonable as the number of samples available. You have even more of these test records than me ;), so I guess you have a better shot at feeling confident with a median than I do.
 
Dear @J.R. Boisclair, @Balle Clorin, and @tony22,

You’ve drawn conclusions about test records and how they’re cut, but there are important aspects you’re missing. Let me explain:

1. Azimuth Measurements Without Lacquers
First of all, you’re measuring test records for azimuth, but you don’t have access to the lacquers of those test record. It’s impossible to evaluate cutting accuracy solely based on azimuth measurements. @J.R. Boisclair, please don’t bring up zenith error here—I’m focusing only on azimuth because the findings others are discussing are based on that. While I agree zenith errors are more critical and related to cutting, and I know your findings are the result of meticulous work but in order to keep things simple, it’s better to focus on azimuth for now.

2. Impact of Electroplating and Pressing on Azimuth
There are several electroplating stages, and azimuth can shift between these steps because the mother, father, and stamper are all thin metal discs. These discs aren’t perfectly flat on a microscopic level—they’re like fabric with tiny imperfections after washing. Additionally, a stamper may not be perfectly mounted in the mold, and errors during flattening of stamper or pressing of record can exacerbate the issue. Pressed records may also exhibit micro-warps or larger warps caused by mishandling during pressing or insufficient cooling. Without access to the lacquers, it’s impossible to evaluate the cutting azimuth accurately or identify the provenance of problems. Impossible to decide whether it’s a cutting issue or pressing issue.

3. Channel Separation Goals
Judging azimuth based on channel separation alone misses the point. The goal isn’t achieving identical separation numbers for both channels but achieving the highest possible separation for each. For instance, 28dB L / 28dB R is worse than 26dB L / 35dB R. A discrepancy in channel separation doesn’t necessarily indicate a problem, as long as it leads to optimal azimuth alignment and minimal phase error. Different test records may show mismatched numbers, but both can still be valid as long as they point to the same or similar azimuth alignment.

4. Impact of Warped Records on Azimuth
Records, like stampers, aren’t perfectly flat. Microscopic warps affect azimuth. I’ve observed this myself—when I flatten my test records using an ORB disc flattener, I notice slight improvements in azimuth. Similarly, when I measure azimuth on a vacuum hold-down turntable, the discrepancies between test records are reduced. This confirms that a vacuum hold-down effectively flattens records.

Conclusion
Please avoid making assumptions about the cutting stage based solely on azimuth measurements, as there isn’t enough information to draw definitive conclusions. A single test record isn’t sufficient for such judgments. Any issues could stem from the cutting technician, electroplating, pressing, or a combination of these factors—we simply don’t know.

Additionally, don’t make assumptions about the azimuth of a test record unless you’re using a vacuum hold-down turntable or at least a disc flattener. Align azimuth as I’ve explained above.

If you don’t trust test records, there’s no better alternative. WallyService (cartridge evaluation), for example, does not provide true azimuth alignment. Its assumption based approach (it’s does not involve actual alignment on tonearm) ensures stylus perpendicularity in the groove—if you’re lucky enough to achieve it—and costs over $500 per cartridge. If you have an expensive cartridge Wally service can make sense but proper azimuth alignment involves aligning the coils, not the stylus.
 
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@mtemur, I’m not sure I’ve actually made any assumptions. :) I think the only frustrated observation I have is that it seems these test records are all different. And I have read your previous posts regarding alignment and coils. The method you suggest (highest separation) is the method I’ve come to realize is correct (thanks in part to a ton of measurements plus listening, and your help). But does that make the records, then, simply a “relative tool”? Let’s say I have one record whose initial measurements (L-R, R-L) with a given cart are -24, -27, another record where they are -31, -28, and a third where they are -28, -28. It seems hard to understand how maximal results can be achieved for all three of these with a cartridge rotated around in azimuth in only one direction (let’s say CW).

I will admit there’s a little confusion I have with this statement -
For instance, 28dB L / 28dB R is worse than 26dB L / 35dB R.
This example suggests that one is really not achieving the highest separation in both channels, if the L value is dropping to achieve a higher number for R.
 
Let’s say I have one record whose initial measurements (L-R, R-L) with a given cart are -24, -27 and another record where they are -31, -28, and a third where they are -28, -28. It seems hard to understand how maximal results can be achieved for all three of these with a cartridge rotated around in azimuth in only one direction (let’s say CW).
Because when other things (alignments) are in order rotating cartridge towards the right way increases separation for both channels. It’s important to find that spot. In an ideal world all three test discs can lead to the same azimuth alignment while showing different numbers. I witnessed this happening but it has happened only with vacuum hold down turntables. My Benz cartridge measures 38dB L and 36dB R with AP disc. Cartridge should be made properly to achieve good azimuth IMHO. You cannot fix an azimuth mistake with alignment. You can slightly reduce its negative effects.

@mtemur, I’m not sure I’ve actually made any assumptions.
Ok. Maybe I misinterpreted your posts.
 
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Because when other things (alignments) are in order
Do you have a recommended order? I know it's iterative, but the initial order would be helpful.
 
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Do you have a recommended order? I know it's iterative, but the initial order would be helpful.
I don’t know if it’s right or effective but my order of alignment is:
anti-skating, VTF, SRA, overhang, azimuth, zenith. After that first run checking everything with AM focusing on azimuth, zenith, SRA and anti-skating. When everything is done I recheck overhang again. If any of them requires additional alignment I check others as well in a never ending spiral until I pull my hairs off.
 
until I pull my hairs off
:D :D :D;) Sounds familiar. I personally do VTF, overhang (rechecking VTF here), SRA, anti-skate, then the rest in your order, then round and round.
 
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The goal isn’t achieving identical separation numbers for both channels but achieving the highest possible separation for each.
This part (which I agree with) seems to be in direct conflict with the AM video, indicating that optimal azimuth when using their record and software is achieved when the L and R crosstalk values are as close together as possible.
 

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