I’m curious on the twisting of wires ? can you explain a bit more. I’m completely in agreement on the signal wires near power.
Audiophile power cords vs. the cables in your walls
- Thread starter Al M.
- Start date
Your correct on solid getting loose at least the larger gauges
I solder the wire on the screw terminal then place the clamp and screw in place. stranded gets loose to over time. tinning the wires helps this doing the same as above.
The JPS was stranded and my current commercial grade wire is stranded. I’ve never used Romax for audio.
How do you feel about the ground wire not being inside the jacket of the PC or emi /RFI shielded if inside ?I've had quite a few customers experiment with various magnet and "graphene" cables but most seem to come back to UPOCC silver or copper after a while. The carbon cables are pretty seductive and have a very black background (absolutely not in the "natural sound" way, lol), seem to reduce noise really well... but it colors the midrange and over time it gets old, at least for me. Best use of carbon is in the ground leg of a power distributor, this seems to work well without adding that midrange coloration.
I think one of the most important things in a power cable is low inductance, a characteristic impedance close to the load normally seen by the PC, low contact resistance, a ground wire with low impedance at high frequencies and one that is more isolated and not simply twisted with the hot and neutral in a 3 strand twist. Material quality is equally important with UPOCC silver achieving the best conductivity and overall neutrality, and teflon being the best dielectric that prevents exposure to air, which prevents corrosion. Finally, the cable must be able to be bent with fatiguing it. Many cables are not capable of many bend cycles before they will be damaged, either due to overall design or the use of solid-core conductors of too large a diameter.
Anyways, I'd be interested to see what you think, I do offer free demos if you ever want to compare with a UPOCC silver cable.
Soldered wires on screw terminals is bad practice. It is asking for trouble ...
Crimping is the answer for this and nothing else...
Only solid core does not need to be crimped but is not flexible so it is no use as power cable, stranded or litz is fine but needs crimping (soldering litz inside a spade is fine but crimping is better).
Attachments
I agree on crimping but on plugs there is little room from screw terminals to strain relief.
reg a bad practice when you don’t know how yes lol. as a tip stranded be it crimped or not should be tinned. The purpose is the ensure all conductors in the group are used as one.
there are so many variables to try and to test is very time consuming and in the end it’s what we hear being best.
With power cables it is safety first !! I can show you how cables look like when connections are not secure... no matter how good it sounds...
MC can be bought in stranded or solid.
I never tin my wire. It's your choice. I never install crimps either. You can hear either.
I have pulled apart plenty of cables I have made and I don't have issues with wires coming loose in clamps.
If what you are connecting to only has a screw. You have to tin or install a spade/ring. Stranded will fail under a screw only.
I have seen and made cables in a variery of techniques. I have manipulated wire to be pulled in a conduit in a variety of techniques. You can hear differences. You can also see differences with a meter. What I don't like is over shielding. Too much can make a sort of compressed, dull sound.
Do what you want with the ground in regard to in the shield or out. But it has to be run in the sheath or conduit with the phase and neutral. It can not be run outside or in a separate raceway.
I very much believe quality slow drawn American made copper wire manipulated properly and pulled in a pipe is far better than romex.
Oyaide is the best in wall wire I have heard. It is not code compliant in the USA.
I have not tried JPS Labs or Analysis Plus. I intend to soon. When you compare $40 a foot wire to pipe and wire, short runs are the same cost. If your running say 40 feet or more, then pipe and wire become more cost effective. But if your running that far, you should also consider a subpanel. Especially with power hungry amps.
I never tin my wire. It's your choice. I never install crimps either. You can hear either.
I have pulled apart plenty of cables I have made and I don't have issues with wires coming loose in clamps.
If what you are connecting to only has a screw. You have to tin or install a spade/ring. Stranded will fail under a screw only.
I have seen and made cables in a variery of techniques. I have manipulated wire to be pulled in a conduit in a variety of techniques. You can hear differences. You can also see differences with a meter. What I don't like is over shielding. Too much can make a sort of compressed, dull sound.
Do what you want with the ground in regard to in the shield or out. But it has to be run in the sheath or conduit with the phase and neutral. It can not be run outside or in a separate raceway.
I very much believe quality slow drawn American made copper wire manipulated properly and pulled in a pipe is far better than romex.
Oyaide is the best in wall wire I have heard. It is not code compliant in the USA.
I have not tried JPS Labs or Analysis Plus. I intend to soon. When you compare $40 a foot wire to pipe and wire, short runs are the same cost. If your running say 40 feet or more, then pipe and wire become more cost effective. But if your running that far, you should also consider a subpanel. Especially with power hungry amps.
I recently added a subpanel and JPS in wall wire. Very happy with the results.
The error is here "what about the thousands of feet of crap copper cables in your walls, huh?" - Its the last 6 feet of cable that supplies the power, believe it or not, out of the space around the cable, weird!
No electrons (i.e zero) from the power station go anywhere near your amplifier, all ac does is jiggle them an inch one way or another. How can they get from the power station if they are moving back and forth? The key electrons are in the last 6 feet of cable! Only in DC do they drift very, very slowly, but power is instantaneous => Poynting
The thing that moves is the induced E-M field caused by potential difference moving electrons one way then the other. This wave moves at approx the speed of light which is why a power switch seems instantaneous. Power per unit area is given by the Poynting vector going radially into the wire from outside the wire. In a mains cable, the power is kept within the dielectric coating into the wire, Poynting vector is zero outside the dielectric if its thick or good enough
S = E x H
Where S is the Poynting Vector, E is the electric field vector, H is the electric field vector and x is the vector product
Poynting vector - Wikipedia
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Poynting_vectors_of_DC_circuit.svg
It applies to AC and DC
What confuses engineers is the adherence to the Drude model of electricity from the 19th century
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drude_model
Like many models, it is useful for explanations and engineering calculations but don't mistake it for reality. Reality is Maxwells equations and quantum mechanics. Why use Drude, it's good enough most of the time and much easier to work with, after all why use General Relativity when you can use Newtonian mechanics most of the time. Models are useful until they are not
Its the difference between physics and engineering, this is under grad physics stuff(admittedly they don't explain it well, I never understood line integrals till years later even though I could calculate them)
If you want to calculate resistance, capacitance and inductance the hard way there are plenty youtube videos
So perhaps the cable salesmen are not completely wrong as @tima alluded to but I find they dumb things down soo much the explanation may sound fishy (I don't work for any but my first degree was physics & astrophysics, we always had a friendly rivalry with our fellow engineering grads ;-)
Don't believe it then google it or buy/borrow a physics book on EM theory. Think about it, do you see circuit diagrams with length on them?
The error is here "what about the thousands of feet of crap copper cables in your walls, huh?" - Its the last 6 feet of cable that supplies the power, believe it or not, out of the space around the cable, weird!
No electrons (i.e zero) from the power station go anywhere near your amplifier, all ac does is jiggle them an inch one way or another. How can they get from the power station if they are moving back and forth? The key electrons are in the last 6 feet of cable! Only in DC do they drift very, very slowly, but power is instantaneous => Poynting
The thing that moves is the induced E-M field caused by potential difference moving electrons one way then the other. This wave moves at approx the speed of light which is why a power switch seems instantaneous. Power per unit area is given by the Poynting vector going radially into the wire from outside the wire. In a mains cable, the power is kept within the dielectric coating into the wire, Poynting vector is zero outside the dielectric if its thick or good enough
S = E x H
Where S is the Poynting Vector, E is the electric field vector, H is the electric field vector and x is the vector product
Poynting vector - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Poynting_vectors_of_DC_circuit.svg
It applies to AC and DC
What confuses engineers is the adherence to the Drude model of electricity from the 19th century
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drude_model
Like many models, it is useful for explanations and engineering calculations but don't mistake it for reality. Reality is Maxwells equations and quantum mechanics. Why use Drude, it's good enough most of the time and much easier to work with, after all why use General Relativity when you can use Newtonian mechanics most of the time. Models are useful until they are not
Its the difference between physics and engineering, this is under grad physics stuff(admittedly they don't explain it well, I never understood line integrals till years later even though I could calculate them)
If you want to calculate resistance, capacitance and inductance the hard way there are plenty youtube videos
So perhaps the cable salesmen are not completely wrong as @tima alluded to but I find they dumb things down soo much the explanation may sound fishy (I don't work for any but my first degree was physics & astrophysics, we always had a friendly rivalry with our fellow engineering grads ;-)
Don't believe it then google it or buy/borrow a physics book on EM theory. Think about it, do you see circuit diagrams with length on them?
Great post and excellent explanation, thanks!
Electrical phenomenon and circuits aren't easy to understand, I think most people imagine something similar to water flowing, which is exactly why you hear some Schitty (sorry, I had to...) reasoning behind beliefs such as "what about the thousands of feet of crap copper cables in your walls, huh?". Unfortunately this is coming from folks who design DACs and amps, so what are the chances of the average guy really understanding anything you just posted?
In another thread there was recently an episode where one sadly misguided individual thinks there's nothing to cables, they are "just wire", but in truth there's a lot going on that is largely misunderstood or immensely simplified in the imagination. The deeply held belief by many that what they learned in school is the last word and the ultimate truth is another issue preventing some from keeping an open mind. It's not helpful to consider one's self an expert imo, especially if that belief is based on obtaining a basic college education.
The error is here "what about the thousands of feet of crap copper cables in your walls, huh?" - Its the last 6 feet of cable that supplies the power, believe it or not, out of the space around the cable, weird!
No electrons (i.e zero) from the power station go anywhere near your amplifier, all ac does is jiggle them an inch one way or another. How can they get from the power station if they are moving back and forth? The key electrons are in the last 6 feet of cable! Only in DC do they drift very, very slowly, but power is instantaneous => Poynting
The thing that moves is the induced E-M field caused by potential difference moving electrons one way then the other. This wave moves at approx the speed of light which is why a power switch seems instantaneous. Power per unit area is given by the Poynting vector going radially into the wire from outside the wire. In a mains cable, the power is kept within the dielectric coating into the wire, Poynting vector is zero outside the dielectric if its thick or good enough
S = E x H
Where S is the Poynting Vector, E is the electric field vector, H is the electric field vector and x is the vector product
Poynting vector - Wikipedia
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Poynting_vectors_of_DC_circuit.svg
It applies to AC and DC
What confuses engineers is the adherence to the Drude model of electricity from the 19th century
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drude_model
Like many models, it is useful for explanations and engineering calculations but don't mistake it for reality. Reality is Maxwells equations and quantum mechanics. Why use Drude, it's good enough most of the time and much easier to work with, after all why use General Relativity when you can use Newtonian mechanics most of the time. Models are useful until they are not
Its the difference between physics and engineering, this is under grad physics stuff(admittedly they don't explain it well, I never understood line integrals till years later even though I could calculate them)
If you want to calculate resistance, capacitance and inductance the hard way there are plenty youtube videos
So perhaps the cable salesmen are not completely wrong as @tima alluded to but I find they dumb things down soo much the explanation may sound fishy (I don't work for any but my first degree was physics & astrophysics, we always had a friendly rivalry with our fellow engineering grads ;-)
Don't believe it then google it or buy/borrow a physics book on EM theory. Think about it, do you see circuit diagrams with length on them?
Great explanation, thanks!
The Shunyata guys have also said that the last few feet are the most important ones, but they never gave an adequate explanation.
A clear and accurate explanation, and a refreshing antidote to the tired “garden hose” folklore.
However… this perspective still does not really explain why a well-designed PC (presumably one which doesn’t inhibit local “electron jiggle”) would make a difference if connected to crappy in-wall wiring.
I have come to the conclusion, based on a lot of experimentation, that well designed PCs such as the Shunyatas really only deliver on their potential when plugged into comparably low in-wall AWG wiring. That is, when the whole closed loop allows the electrons to jiggle to their heart’s content.
I do understand that PC manufacturers have to sell their wares, so am not surprised that most of them don’t say “don’t buy our stuff unless your in wall wiring is up to the job”. Shunyata gets the closest to saying this in their white papers, and this is one of the many reasons I like this company.
However… this perspective still does not really explain why a well-designed PC (presumably one which doesn’t inhibit local “electron jiggle”) would make a difference if connected to crappy in-wall wiring.
I have come to the conclusion, based on a lot of experimentation, that well designed PCs such as the Shunyatas really only deliver on their potential when plugged into comparably low in-wall AWG wiring. That is, when the whole closed loop allows the electrons to jiggle to their heart’s content.
I do understand that PC manufacturers have to sell their wares, so am not surprised that most of them don’t say “don’t buy our stuff unless your in wall wiring is up to the job”. Shunyata gets the closest to saying this in their white papers, and this is one of the many reasons I like this company.
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Yes it was a long running joke when I was younger, every time you went up a level in education you had to unlearn the simplifications taught previously.
Here is a cool pop video that simplifies this: Energy doesn't FLOW the way you THINK! (Electrodynamics) - AC is at 4:51 onwards - very good channel covering some very complex topics in a fun way
And for those that want mathematical proof Worked Example - Poynting Vector for a Resistor (he also does capacitors and solenoids)
(the maths isn't that bad if you take it slow but you will see why people use simple models ;-)
People confusing models with reality is the issue...
I'm still trying to wrap my head around this (and power delivery/conditioning in general). Thanks. More to ponder!The error is here "what about the thousands of feet of crap copper cables in your walls, huh?" - Its the last 6 feet of cable that supplies the power, believe it or not, out of the space around the cable, weird!
No electrons (i.e zero) from the power station go anywhere near your amplifier, all ac does is jiggle them an inch one way or another. How can they get from the power station if they are moving back and forth? The key electrons are in the last 6 feet of cable! Only in DC do they drift very, very slowly, but power is instantaneous => Poynting
The thing that moves is the induced E-M field caused by potential difference moving electrons one way then the other. This wave moves at approx the speed of light which is why a power switch seems instantaneous. Power per unit area is given by the Poynting vector going radially into the wire from outside the wire. In a mains cable, the power is kept within the dielectric coating into the wire, Poynting vector is zero outside the dielectric if its thick or good enough
S = E x H
Where S is the Poynting Vector, E is the electric field vector, H is the electric field vector and x is the vector product
Poynting vector - Wikipedia
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Poynting_vectors_of_DC_circuit.svg
It applies to AC and DC
What confuses engineers is the adherence to the Drude model of electricity from the 19th century
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drude_model
Like many models, it is useful for explanations and engineering calculations but don't mistake it for reality. Reality is Maxwells equations and quantum mechanics. Why use Drude, it's good enough most of the time and much easier to work with, after all why use General Relativity when you can use Newtonian mechanics most of the time. Models are useful until they are not
Its the difference between physics and engineering, this is under grad physics stuff(admittedly they don't explain it well, I never understood line integrals till years later even though I could calculate them)
If you want to calculate resistance, capacitance and inductance the hard way there are plenty youtube videos
So perhaps the cable salesmen are not completely wrong as @tima alluded to but I find they dumb things down soo much the explanation may sound fishy (I don't work for any but my first degree was physics & astrophysics, we always had a friendly rivalry with our fellow engineering grads ;-)
Don't believe it then google it or buy/borrow a physics book on EM theory. Think about it, do you see circuit diagrams with length on them?
Armored cable is designed for permanent installation, not to be repeatedly bent like a power cable.
A power cable may have superior electrical characteristics and materials, which could allow higher levels of instantaneous current delivery to the power transformer. This may include lower inductance and a characteristic impedance that matches the load better than romex.
The power cable may have a better ground connection, which includes lower resistance and lower impedance at higher frequencies. Ideally, every component will have their grounds combined at the end of the power cable, so the power cable ground forms a star-ground for the system. If this is done well then it may mitigate some of the advantages some folks seem to get from "ground boxes", which don't actually serve the function of grounding a majority of the time, they are filters and/or antennae.
Next, the power cable may serve as the primary signal return leg for a single ended system. If the signal ground isn't isolated from the ground pin of the IEC inlet then the AC power cable ground will likely have much less resistance than the interconnect cable ground, and the ground leg of the power cable is now audible as a signal conductor. There are no standards for this in audio so some components do indeed have no isolation between chassis and signal ground.
Also, power cables may be shielded or not. IME, the benefits of shielding depend on the component and in some cases shields may make things worse. A heavy shield close to the conductors, such as in an armored cable, will sound poor on amplifiers or any use where there's significant current draw, and this issue is probably bad enough in an armored cable it'll also be audible in sources and preamps. OTOH, a properly implemented shield can be a benefit for some components that may be noisy, such as most DACs and components that use SMPS, it won't broadcast that noise as much. A proper implementation of a shield does not impinge on the EMF the cable creates, or at least minimizes it. Armored cable without the armor would project a large EMF relative to a more optimal design, so this contributes to the issue. Subjectively, improper or poorly implemented shielding dulls the sound and softens transients.
Finally, related to the 1st point, it's not to code to do what you describe and if this causes a problem, like fire or a fatality, you are 100% responsible for it because you did work that's not to code.
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