Respectfully, Alex, wouldn’t that set-up — with a piece from three different manufacturers — be complicated rather than simple? Wouldn’t a Kuzma 4Point on a Kuzma Stabi M be simpler?
Yes, simpler as a packaged solution is simpler than a multi-vendor one. But the packaged solution doesn't always render the best sound, that's where I was coming from. From what I heard, that's the combo I'd go for.
I also meant to say that the 4Point 9" is simpler than the standard 4Point and the Technics is a simpler table to set up.
Hi Ron, I am not looking for simple just the best sound for my money. I have set up several turntables over the last 40 years and I like doing it so it all comes down to the best sound for the money. Spirit you sure like that Stabi M, you must have a lot of experience with it and the Technics tables too.
Then Gary, you need to go back to the Stabi M.
I repeat, you cannot take any one review at face value, or in isolation.
If you are going to pay attention to Fremer, then you need to pay attention to Gregory. He loves the M.
If warm with body is what you want, my impression of Stabi M is that it v much provides this.
Well I seem to have a knack on my phone for making posts, trying to edit them, and accidentally deleting them instead. Now from the laptop...
I've got to agree with spiritofmusic in terms of the approach. GaryJ, if you've been around turntables for 40 years, then presumably you know there is no "best" individual component. Total system synergy is everything. So, unless I missed it, why not describe your sonic preferences and the rest of your audio chain that you'll be mating with this new table? There is clearly a wealth of experience and knowledge here. So if we knew what you like and what your chain already contains (or will contain), then I think you're going to get much better advice and be far more likely to converge on the sound you want. Your point on collecting data is well taken, but the advertising dollar effect, and even Fremer's own preferences/biases are in play when it comes to magazine and online reviews. I am very skeptical that collecting printed review "data" is likely to produce the best (for you) end result.
For example, in another forum, I've stated my own preferences:
I prefer an open/fast/clean/lucid presentation but only in service of organic musicality.
I have learned to steer clear of excessively detailed/analytical/"hifi" sounding products.
I've also learned to categorically avoid slow/tubey/euphonic colorations that hinder PRaT and openness.
bazelio, You sure hit the nail on the head as your preferences closely match mine. Lets start out with my system, Preamp-Convergent Audio Technology Legend, Amps-Quicksilver Audio Mono 120, Speakers-Sound Lab Ultimate One electrostatics. Cables-Purist Audio Neptune. I also have a Lumin S1 music server but that does not count here.
bazelio, You sure hit the nail on the head as your preferences closely match mine. Lets start out with my system, Preamp-Convergent Audio Technology Legend, Amps-Quicksilver Audio Mono 120, Speakers-Sound Lab Ultimate One electrostatics. Cables-Purist Audio Neptune. I also have a Lumin S1 music server but that does not count here.
So with that neutral/transparent preamp (I've heard the SL1, but not yours) and presumably a KT120/KT150 push pull amp (not familiar with the Quicksilver itself) paired with electrostatics, for my preferences, I'd be concerned with the Technics in that chain. I'd certainly think a warm cart and perhaps even arm would be warranted. And if that particular CAT preamp utilizes 6DJ8s, there are some good compatible alternatives in the PCC88 and 6922 families to dial in some bloom and body which could help. Less so, in my experience, if it utilizes 12AX7s. But either way, I'd still be a bit concerned about synergy. Direct drive plus electrostatics just raises a couple red flags in my mind right off the bat, given your preferences. An analytical, fatiguing final sound signature could be difficult to avoid. I'm also curious what others might think.
No Gary, never heard the Stabi M or SP10R. Like you, I’m commenting on tts not from experience. You’re the one who’s introduced both into a thread.
All I’m saying is that to buy based on good reviews can be criticised. And to not buy based on poor reviews can also be criticised.
Direct drive plus electrostatics just raises a couple red flags in my mind right off the bat, given your preferences. An analytical, fatiguing final sound signature could be difficult to avoid. I'm also curious what others might think.
It's all about balance and implementation; I run ESL and DD and have a very unfatiguing and immersive sound here as Marc can testify
Have you considered one of Peter Norbaek's DD Denon rebuild's? As an aircraft engineer I would imagine Peter's engineering skills will be of special interest to you..
It's all about balance and implementation; I run ESL and DD and have a very unfatiguing and immersive sound here as Marc can testify
Have you considered one of Peter Norbaek's DD Denon rebuild's? As an aircraft engineer I'm would imagine Peter's engineering will be of special interest to you..
From memory the 308 is around $30k. The DP80 rebuild that Peter does I believe is around $10k, both excluding arm. Would love to see/hear one as the Denon DD's are exceptional motor's..
Spirit, I have heard good and not so good things from people about these tables. Some say they sound analytical or kind of digital so if I had my choice I would like a table that sounds more warm with body then a table that is on the cool side.
Of course you have. People have different preferences, including Fremer. This isn't even to mention biases. I sat next to Fremer briefly in the Einstein LAAS suite last summer. He raved about the sound from this system. It featured a Tech Das AF3 as the source, I recall. A mid 6 figure rig without breaking a sweat. Me, I found the sound in this suite to be unnatural sounding and simply unengaging. I can think of at least a few [much less expensive] suites from LAAS that tugged at my heartstrings in a way the Einstein suite could not. Different strokes. Now with regards to Stabi M, anyone who says it is analytical or digital sounding must prefer a much warmer, thicker sound than I do. Music flows naturally from my Stabi M with 11" 4 point. I've used a Kiseki Purpleheart and a Transfiguration Proteus so far, and both (while different), just sound smooth, effortless, and unforced. Even handed and linear across the spectrum. If you want extra bloom, you'll pick a cart that provides it, dial it in to taste with tubes, etc. The Stabi M itself is neutral with the 4-point (IMO) being a bit warm yet big and dimensional sounding with incredible detail retrieval capability (unlike, say, a Triplanar arm).
As Paul said, the end result is all about balance (which is what I mean by synergy). There is no "best", with apologies to forum founders. ;-)
Spirit, I was referring to SP-10 tables in general like the mk2-mk3 versions of the table. I think my best bet is to get an idea from people that has experience with both types of tables on this site. If I cannot find at least two people that has experience with both tables I will have to revert back to to magazine reviews then go from there. From what I have read Roy Gregory likes several tables he has reviewed with no table being his favorite. I do take into account all of the suggestions everyone has posted on this site. Thanks to all.
bazelio, I was referring to the Technics tables being analytical sounding never the Stabi M, from what others have said. I did listen to Fremers last tune he played and it did sound good on the new Technics but once again it is not in my system and over a computer. Unless the new Technics table does something very different from other versions like mk2-mk3 tables I think it will sound on the cool side but this is just a guess at this point.
bazelio, I was referring to the Technics tables being analytical sounding never the Stabi M, from what others have said. I did listen to Fremers last tune he played and it did sound good on the new Technics but once again it is not in my system and over a computer. Unless the new Technics table does something very different from other versions like mk2-mk3 tables I think it will sound on the cool side but this is just a guess at this point.
As long as you're listening to videos, here is one of my most memorable LAAS 2017 suites regardless of price (and the price is much lower than most). Incidentally, it featured a Stabi M. The Wilson Audio guys came in to the suite at one point asking Steve Norber how he was able to achieve that kind of body and texture in the suite (which posed certain acoustic challenges) with those "little" speakers. Others were asking if there was a supplemental sub woofer hidden by the black table cloth below the motor controller. (There was not). Of course you can't get an idea of dimensionality and imaging from a video, but the reviewer's microphone is very competent and the tone and musicality do come through. Unfamiliar electronics and such noted as well. But worth a listen.
bazelio, thanks for the video, the speakers over my computer sounded like all box speakers to me. Some people do not like electrostatics but once I listened to them I could not go to a box speaker ever again. Now this is my opinion only but all box speakers to me sound like a megaphone and I hear the enclosure the cones are in, that sonic signature that overwhelms me that something is wrong and it sounds so unnatural to me but once again that it is just my opinion.
