David Karmeli’s Bionor/Lamm/AS-2000 Audio System

[asb]

Wow, post 100 .. sorry for disturbing the original thread.
Moderator may want to sweep this out if it is too far off.

 

[MarcelNL]

Your hint may have been to subtle for my senses.

Trionor is a system designed after Bionor, using three fullrange drivers and a supertweeter in the Kugelwellenhorn design in a large baflle. When KL405 is becoming unobtanium alternatives need to be found.

 

[asb]

Well, it is not exactly unobtainium.

 

[Amir]

I have never been particularly understanding of the desire to have two different audio systems. I have always had the philosophy of maximizing the sum of sonic qualities with one system.

I think the Bionors are so dramatically convincing on jazz music certainly, and classical music as well (especially in an even larger room) I now can totally see the desire for two systems: Bionors (driven by SET amps) for jazz and classical and classic rock; planars (driven by high-power tubes) for vocals and pop.

If you check my older posts you will see I have told we need two audio systems.
If I have TAD Reference (transparent system) then I need Good horn (dynamic system) like Living Voice Vox Olympian.
The Key is we should try to have good harmonics (tone/natural/balance) in both systems and for having good tone the good/match amplification plus good AC quality are important.
very few audiophiles think about amplifier/speaker matching and also AC quality.

 

[Amir]

Many horns suffer coloration from high order modes (HOMS) as discussed and researched at length by Earl Geddes and others, which led to the development of more modern horn shapes to minimize the effect. Often referred to as “honk”…

From the position of my experience I might assure you that the Earl Geddes’ comments about horns, although might have some purely theoretical values, but have no applied meaning. I would like to pay attention that theories do not make the thing work – it only explains the events. The explanations might be incorrect and in that case the explanations-based practice become completely not applicable.


Romy the Cat

 

[bonzo75]

If you check my older posts you will see I have told we need two audio systems.
If I have TAD Reference (transparent system) then I need Good horn (dynamic system) like Living Voice Vox Olympian.
The Key is we should try to have good harmonics (tone/natural/balance) in both systems and for having good tone the good/match amplification plus good AC quality are important.
very few audiophiles think about amplifier/speaker matching and also AC quality.

TAD reference is very coloured, the amps required to drive that speaker are a choice between bad and awful where simplicity of circuits is concerned. How can it be transparent going through so much? Horn systems can be both dynamic and transparent. With TAD and LV you seem to be going for price tags rather than investigating.

 

[Folsom]

TAD reference is very coloured, the amps required to drive that speaker are a choice between bad and awful where simplicity of circuits is concerned. How can it be transparent going through so much? Horn systems can be both dynamic and transparent. With TAD and LV you seem to be going for price tags rather than investigating.

Ever seen a mixing board. Dumb argument. They just aren’t your cup of tea (or mine), that simple. It is a bit of a wonder why they went where they did.

 

[Amir]

4) I now believe that prior to this visit to David I had never before heard a vdH cartridge set-up properly. I have reported repeatedly based on at least eight listening sessions across at least four systems that I hear unnatural brightness and sibilance and excessive treble energy from the vdH Colibri cartridges. David has said that this means that the cartridges simply are not perfectly aligned. I did not believe David.

David is correct. At David’s the vdH Master Signature cartridge does not exhibit much, if any, of the brightness or sibilance or excess treble energy of which I have accused Colibris repeatedly. Is this impression because the Bionors sound to some listeners rolled off in the high frequencies compared to Magico and YG loudspeakers? That could be a part of it, but that cannot explain away all of the sibilance and edginess I have reported previously, including on vintage (JBL Hartsfield) and vintage-sounding (Tannoy Westminster RG) loudspeakers. Still, out of caution, I personally would not pair a vdH Colibri with a hot-sounding tweeter. For some reason, only David, it appears, knows how to adjust perfectly a vdH Colibri.

I told you before no audio component is bright/awful sounding and most wrong judgments come from wrong setup .

I think most audio reviewers (magazines) spread wrong judgments in audio world .

 

[JackD201]

My first post to David when he joined the forum was I believe...... "So YOU are the Bionor guy!" LOL

Still hoping to get to Utah one day but will never forget David's generosity for offering to share now unobtanium WE 417a's for my LP2.1

Thanks for the report Ron!

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

still don´t get why theese guys use the JBL 460 subs for theese speakers.....

 

[MarcelNL]

they do drop off below 50Hz, the Kugelwellenhorn simply does not support lower frequencies.

I'm now going in the direction of getting two tesla fullrange units converted to Field Coil in a Bionor setup, the flexible Zebrano veneer has arrived.

 

[Solypsa]

I don't think @christensenleif@msn.com was questioning the need for subs

 

[MarcelNL]

probably, yet I do...since it's devilishy difficult to match the speed of a speaker with a sub.

 

[jeff1225]

still don´t get why theese guys use the JBL 460 subs for theese speakers.....

Why is that?

 

[Al M.]

they do drop off below 50Hz, the Kugelwellenhorn simply does not support lower frequencies.

Do you have a frequency plot for that?

 

[MarcelNL]

Do you have a frequency plot for that?

Just do the math on the horn mouth.

And have a look at the 'spec sheet' from whenever https://klangfilm.org/index.php?lng=0&music=&type=0&frame=1&item=&title=&dir=&num=

The original design used the fabulous fullrange driver KL405 in the horn from plm 50Hz to 500Hz, cutting over to the horn on top (or two horns depending on whether it's Bionor or Bionor II)

We ran a comparison last summer, and using the horn fullrange and adding a supertweeter sounded best, though it was a very close call.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

Why is that?

because there are far better solutions to combine with a horn system
a mediocre BR is no match for an all out hornsystem imo
any hornsystem snaps into focus through the whole range when everything is hornloaded

 

[Solypsa]

Wrt the Klangfilm Euronor / Bionor I am truly curious what is the best sub match since the bass is horn loaded in upper range and essentially open baffle below, unlike VOTT which is bass reflex below ( again horn loaded only through mid bass ). I did hear a hybrid Klangfilm system with a very large FLH from Philips that was interesting...

Now a sub that can keep pace with full range WE compression driver system is for me an example of speed 13audio

 

[bonzo75]

Wrt the Klangfilm Euronor / Bionor I am truly curious what is the best sub match since the bass is horn loaded in upper range and essentially open baffle below, unlike VOTT which is bass reflex below ( again horn loaded only through mid bass ). I did hear a hybrid Klangfilm system with a very large FLH from Philips that was interesting...

Now a sub that can keep pace with full range WE compression driver system is for me an example of speed 13audio

Did you hear the 13 audio? I had been to his place in 2015, he only had the 15a on at that time

 

[Al M.]

Just do the math on the horn mouth.

And have a look at the 'spec sheet' from whenever https://klangfilm.org/index.php?lng=0&music=&type=0&frame=1&item=&title=&dir=&num=

The original design used the fabulous fullrange driver KL405 in the horn from plm 50Hz to 500Hz, cutting over to the horn on top (or two horns depending on whether it's Bionor or Bionor II)

We ran a comparison last summer, and using the horn fullrange and adding a supertweeter sounded best, though it was a very close call.

Oh I see. You meant the horns dropping off below 50 Hz, not the subs. That wasn't clear to me from the context.