Does Tonal Balance Affect Perceived Pace and Perceived Resolution?

[Ron Resnick]

Actually, I am considering replacing the sheet rock around the fireplace with concrete board and perhaps wood panels over that.

Do you mean like that HardieBacker construction materials product?

 

[PeterA]

Do you mean like that HardieBacker construction materials product?

I don’t know what that is.

 

[dcathro]

I understood your approach and cannot argue with your points. IMHO the biggest difference between houses in USA and Europe is drywall. In Europe or other parts of the world houses or apartments are build from bricks or concrete which is extremely stiff compared to drywall. Unlike concrete or brick, walls made of 2X4 wood lumbers that covered with drywalls on both sides are extremely reverberant. It requires a lot of treatment in a never ending story. I wonder why people try to add a subwoofer to their already full range speakers that can go down to 25Hz, trying to bring it down more to 20Hz? And why doing it in a drywalled room?

IMHO the biggest upgrade an audiophile in USA can do is moving to an all concrete/ brick walled listening room. Drywall is the worst thing I ever encountered, worse than glass to my ears.

Thanks for posting this!

I was going to post something similar as I have lived with both types of room and it is the biggest factor effecting performance.

I think it helps to explain why many American audiophiles don't get PRAT and are obsessed with bass.

 

[dcathro]

I have never understood "pace, rhythm and timing" either.

You are not alone.

I think most audiophiles don't know what it is and very few systems are able to portray it properly. It is something you have to be highly aware of and go after.

Obsession with frequency extension, imaging and detail is at odds with reproducing it.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Obsession with frequency extension, imaging and detail is at odds with reproducing it.

Why is this?

 

[PeterA]

You are not alone.

I think most audiophiles don't know what it is and very few systems are able to portray it properly. It is something you have to be highly aware of and go after.

Obsession with frequency extension, imaging and detail is at odds with reproducing it.

I get your point. Good rhythm and timing are essential for a natural presentation and involvement. I also like good quality over quantity of bass. My father is American of English decent. My mother is from Saxony.

 

[dcathro]

Why is this?

Because it is Really difficult to have both. You either go after one or the other.

The systems that I have heard that do PRAT have always been relatively simple - not massive and ambitious. The speakers have been single driver (full range) or two way with limited bass extension (maybe 35 to 50hz). I have heard the occasional 3 way system that did it, but it was a lot more work.

If you are after PRAT, imaging and detail are distractions. They are things that follow (the tail rather than the dog)

Frequency extension is very difficult to achieve because it adds complexity. At a minimum you need a 3 way, but probably 4+.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Thanks for posting this!

I was going to post something similar as I have lived with both types of room and it is the biggest factor effecting performance.

I think it helps to explain why American audiophiles don't get PRAT and are obsessed with bass.

You are not alone.

I think most audiophiles don't know what it is and very few systems are able to portray it properly. It is something you have to be highly aware of and go after.

Obsession with frequency extension, imaging and detail is at odds with reproducing it.

i think throwing stones at system aspirations as somehow exclusionary and negative is just wrong. it seems like it's more an excuse to ignore musical information that is on the recording. and rationalize system limitations.

like you are proud and happily elitist for limiting particular things. i want to hear all types of music at it's best. and hear all aspects of the music that is possible to hear.

it's more challenging to attain it all for sure and not lose important parts. and trade-offs do occur on the road to system optimization.

just my 2 cents.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Because it is Really difficult to have both. You either go after one or the other.

The systems that I have heard that do PRAT have always been relatively simple - not massive and ambitious. The speakers have been single driver (full range) or two way with limited bass extension (maybe 35 to 50hz). I have heard the occasional 3 way system that did it, but it was a lot more work.

If you are after PRAT, imaging and detail are distractions. They are things that follow (the tail rather than the dog)

Frequency extension is very difficult to achieve because it adds complexity. At a minimum you need a 3 way, but probably 4+.

Thank you.

Do you think the best, or perhaps the only, way to achieve PRaT is with high sensitivity speakers and SET amplifiers?

 

[Ron Resnick]

I don’t know what that is.

I believe it is concrete board.

(I covered my sidewalls with it underneath 1" of insulation before the insulation was covered with three-quarter inch walnut planks.)

 

[Holmz]

so you are saying the listeners here are more sophisticated. I will take that

Is “here” the virtual forum?
Or a particular geographic location?

 

[Joe Whip]

Hardee backer is cement board, think of a piece f plywood made of cement with embedded mesh. We used it around a shower enclosure to apply subway tile. James Hardee also makes cement based siding which our house is clad in. This stuff lasts!

 

[Ron Resnick]

If one were to generalize, I would say American audiophiles are obsessed with big, loud, expensive objects.

If that were true I think Kedars would be more common here.

 

[dcathro]

i think throwing stones at system aspirations as somehow exclusionary and negative is just wrong. it seems like it's more an excuse to ignore musical information that is on the recording. and rationalize system limitations.

like you are proud and happily elitist for limiting particular things. i want to hear all types of music at it's best. and hear all aspects of the music that is possible to hear.

it's more challenging to attain it all for sure and not lose important parts. and trade-offs do occur on the road to system optimization.

just my 2 cents.

Don't get me wrong, I am not throwing stones or criticizing other peoples aspirations!

I am just explaining an observation. I have no problem with people enjoying whatever they like in whatever way they like.

I will not tell people what they should like or what they should listen to - hence my reluctance to participate in format war threads.

I lived in England for 16 years and became exposed to PRAT.

Living in Australia with housing construction similar to America I have found VERY difficult to get any of this. I have also found that my rooms chosen for audio reproduction are so leaky in the bass that it one is almost forced to add subwoofers.

 

[bonzo75]

I lived in England for 16 years and became exposed to PRAT.

It’s quite possible you got exposed to PRAT over 16 years. You are going to get some new exposure in 16 years, irrespective of where you live. It might have happened elsewhere too. For example, I got exposed to analog living in London. Can’t conclude the city caused it. It was just time for the next step

 

[Argonaut]

And some times sell them a pair of speakers !

Hmmmm , Now who might that remind me of ?

 

[tima]

Thanks.

Ron shared that both videos were made with the same tape (his tape of Soular Energy).

Same tape, same performance; no?

Same tape, same performance, two recordings that sound different from one another. I probably misunderstood.

 

[dcathro]

Thank you.

Do you think the best, or perhaps the only, way to achieve PRaT is with high sensitivity speakers and SET amplifiers?

I think that high sensitivity is certainly helpful, and lower powered simpler amplifiers whether valve or solid state are often at the heart of systems with PRAT. I would not say that there is only one way to achieve it, or that there is a best way. I have heard many different combinations of equipment achieve it.

 

[dcathro]

It’s quite possible you got exposed to PRAT over 16 years. You are going to get some new exposure in 16 years, irrespective of where you live. It might have happened elsewhere too. For example, I got exposed to analog living in London. Can’t conclude the city caused it. It was just time for the next step

It was a combination of the places I lived (Cambridge and London) and the people I met. I would never had understood PRAT if someone hadn't hit me over the head with it.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Don't get me wrong, I am not throwing stones or criticizing other peoples aspirations!

thanks, sorry if i overreacted and appreciate you not doing that.

I am just explaining an observation. I have no problem with people enjoying whatever they like in whatever way they like.

I will not tell people what they should like or what they should listen to - hence my reluctance to participate in format war threads.

generalizations with a negative bend can seem to be more pointed than intended. no doubt some systems succeed at peripheral things, but miss the musical connection and not be engaging by degrees. it can happen. but one needs to hear it to know.

I lived in England for 16 years and became exposed to PRAT.

Living in Australia with housing construction similar to America I have found VERY difficult to get any of this. I have also found that my rooms chosen for audio reproduction are so leaky in the bass that it one is almost forced to add subwoofers.

i don't subscribe to locations being evidence of any particular result with a particular system; but it's fair to recognize the plus's and minus's of styles of living.

i grew up in a home built in 1917 with heavy lath and plaster walls. but the rooms were quite small. never had any serious hifi there, but i am familiar with different type construction than more recent homes here. and that it "can" be an asset built in that newer homes might need to do some work to achieve. but that work can be done. old buildings do not have any singular right to good sound. even pictures rarely tell much of the story.