Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.

[PeterA]

I'd like to add that I think this post is extremely informative. Skeptics are asking questions, and proponents are presenting defenses. I think we are all learning something here. This is the kind of post that used to be fairly frequent over on Audiogon. Sadly, that is no longer the case, and too often, interesting threads (because they are seen as controversial) are deleted by the moderators.

Kudos to this site for offering this platform and to Mike and Christian for trying these devices and sharing their experiences. 42 pages and counting.

 

[Steve williams]

without doubt IMO this is one of the most interesting and informative threads here in a long time

so yes kudos to Mike and Christian

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, I have the impression that you are listening much more to vinyl these days with the addition of the Herzan. A while back, I think around the time you upgraded from the Talea to the Telos, you mentioned that your vinyl was now sounding much more like your R2R tapes and actually sounded close to "master tape" quality. I don't remember the exact quote, but I was certainly impressed by your sense of elation. At the time you referred to your tapes as your personal reference.

Now, with many more upgrades to your analog front end and most recently the two Herzan isolation tables, do you feel that you have you surpassed the sound of your R2R? Have you gone back to listen to your tapes recently and have you considered a Herzan for your R2R? I know that Albert Porter has a Vibraplane under both his turntable and R2R and he reports similarly significant improvements.

Which would you now consider your reference, tape or LP?

the answer to that still must play itself out. which is more a matter of what I've been listening to lately, than what that result will be.

the NVS-Telos-Anna has occupied most of my focus since I got the new amps and speakers. it just sounds so good, but more than that, I am so emotionally connected to the music and there are so many more choices. and in addition to the recent Herzan, there is the Sapphire cartridge plate and the Durand Record Weight and 2nd Telos for mono.

except for visitors, in the last 8 months I've maybe played tapes 2 or 3 times when i'm by myself. there is another reason for that besides the performance of the vinyl. for the last year I've been focusing on 1/2" tape instead of 1/4"; the 1/2" is crazy good, similar to a 45rpm record verse a 33, but in some ways better than that. I've had a 1/2" Studer A-820 for a couple of years that sounds great. last summer I noticed that the motors were getting a bit noisey, so I got some help to remove them and sent them off to be rebuilt. unfortunately, these 'unobtainium motors' were damaged in shipment. the place that rebuilds the motors thought they could repair them but when I got them back I could not get them to work. so my 1/2" Studer is now at Ki Choi's place being repaired, and it's a complicated repair process. so I have not been able to play any 1/2" tapes, and last year I bought the Tape Project Series 3 in 1/2". so i'm a bit low test playing the tapes as ill-logical as that sounds.

getting back to your direct question; right this minute I believe that my vinyl front end, on the top 15-20% of the best sounding pressings is better than the 1/4" tape. more detail, just as solid and focused images, equal or better bass, and an equal ease and flow. but unless I listened to more tape over an extended period I cannot say that with confidence. and 1/2" tape is another matter all together.

the good news is that I have an audio club meeting in early August in my room, and Ki thinks that one way or another my 1/2" Studer will be good to go by then so i'll have 1/2" tape for the members.

sorry to ramble on there, but the answer is not quite clear.

 

[jazdoc]

I seem to have generated a bit of a shitstorm. Not my intention. Good lord guys, let's step back and take a collective breath.

First, as Mike astutely notes, it takes a while to orient to someone else's system; even Mike's with which I am quite familiar. Sometimes that's good: you can be more objective and pick up potential set up issues. However, sometimes it can be bad...you're drinking from the audio fire hydrant, get overwhelmed by the big picture changes and miss the subtleties.

Secondly, to my ears, the Herzans take Mike's system even further than before. You can argue regarding the degree of improvement and whether that improvement justifies the cost. (Hey, all of this requires a big rationalization; we could all choose to donate the money we spend on this discretionary hobby to any number of meaningful charities.) In Mike's system, this was a no brainer.

I'd love to try one in my system but I've got a kid going to college this year, so THAT ain't happening soon. I probably do need to back off a bit on what was going on with the digital because it has been a long time since I've heard it at Mike's...but the Jamey Johnson sounded really good. Not good enough to keep us from switching back to records, but really good.

Mike is correct; we didn't do any 'high octane' pieces. Which reminds me, I want to hear "In My Time of Dying" and "Scythian Suite" next visit. Let's see if we can make the lights dim in downtown North Bend!

Now that I think about it, I thought the biggest improvement was on the mono record (Aftermath by The Rolling Stones), so I am bringing an armful of monos on my next visit.

As always, the best part was hanging out with my friend!

 

[NorthStar]

Mark, that is very nice of you to have your priorities in 'balanced' order; investing in the kid going to college. :b

 

[rockitman]

Hey if I had kids, I wouldn't have this stereo. Trade offs

 

[spiritofmusic]

Peter, I'm not so much a skeptic, as trying to get a handle on the relative scale of improvements brought to the table, and why/how they're wrought. We can all agree that audio/hifi is part objective, and big part subjective. Otherwise we'd only buy equipment with the best figures. Eg YG/Magico have some of the best stats in spkrs, but I'd rather listen to my portable radio if I had to make the choice. Conversely, full range drivers (FRD) measure terribly, but I'd give up listening to music at home if I had to give up my xoverless FRD endowed Zu Audio Definitions 4 spkrs.
So, objectiveness would suggest isolation under ss amps wouldn't contribute much, ie no moving parts, big chassis etc, but it could well do. So, maintain a stringent eye/ear over bold claims, but maintain openess since strange things can happen at the interface of the physical world and our personal experience. Whew! philosophy lecture over!
My issue is that NO upmarket stands until now have ever made a significant impvt in my room over my standard fixed affair, with only the Symposium going somewhere. Even this was moderate, but still noticeable in a low level pleasant way. But not magnitudes of improvement. It does have have fantastic isolation in 5 tiers, you can sway it side to side like it's withstanding a blowing gale, and the cart never skips once, and that's with a REALLY sensitive air bearing arm - prev rack VERY prone to footfall. My spkrs have floor firing active sub bass drivers, so my floor is energised most by low frequencies, and so the Symposium is prob proving it's worth here, with 5 layers of horizontal axis isolation taking out vibrations a great deal from the floor before they get to the tt.
Mike, you have 8 x 15" fwd firing sub bass drivers, and 8 x 7" midbass. That's a HELL of a lot of room energising going on, surely more than anyone here, even Christian with his big Wilsons. I suspect even with room treatments, there is a swell of bass which must feed back into the tt. If the Herzan really can ameliorate a good proportion of this, yes it will be audible.
The main point of this message is that the last few replies by Mike and Jazdoc use more temperate language- gone from active causing earth shattering changes to more additive synergistic improvements. This is surely most likely. I'm going to take all OTT language in future with a pinch of salt.
Similarly I feel Mike might get most bang for buck out of it due to the sheer amount of bass in his room, mine challenging but not in the same ball park, and floor borne isolation more the key for me, not bass direct from the speakers, so 5 tiers horizontal isolation from my isis will be hard to beat.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Peter, I'm not so much a skeptic, as trying to get a handle on the relative scale of improvements brought to the table, and why/how they're wrought. We can all agree that audio/hifi is part objective, and big part subjective. Otherwise we'd only buy equipment with the best figures. Eg YG/Magico have some of the best stats in spkrs, but I'd rather listen to my portable radio if I had to make the choice. Conversely, full range drivers (FRD) measure terribly, but I'd give up listening to music at home if I had to give up my xoverless FRD endowed Zu Audio Definitions 4 spkrs.
So, objectiveness would suggest isolation under ss amps wouldn't contribute much, ie no moving parts, big chassis etc, but it could well do. So, maintain a stringent eye/ear over bold claims, but maintain openess since strange things can happen at the interface of the physical world and our personal experience. Whew! philosophy lecture over!
My issue is that NO upmarket stands until now have ever made a significant impvt in my room over my standard fixed affair, with only the Symposium going somewhere. Even this was moderate, but still noticeable in a low level pleasant way. But not magnitudes of improvement. It does have have fantastic isolation in 5 tiers, you can sway it side to side like it's withstanding a blowing gale, and the cart never skips once, and that's with a REALLY sensitive air bearing arm - prev rack VERY prone to footfall. My spkrs have floor firing active sub bass drivers, so my floor is energised most by low frequencies, and so the Symposium is prob proving it's worth here, with 5 layers of horizontal axis isolation taking out vibrations a great deal from the floor before they get to the tt.
Mike, you have 8 x 15" fwd firing sub bass drivers, and 8 x 7" midbass. That's a HELL of a lot of room energising going on, surely more than anyone here, even Christian with his big Wilsons. I suspect even with room treatments, there is a swell of bass which must feed back into the tt. If the Herzan really can ameliorate a good proportion of this, yes it will be audible.
The main point of this message is that the last few replies by Mike and Jazdoc use more temperate language- gone from active causing earth shattering changes to more additive synergistic improvements. This is surely most likely. I'm going to take all OTT language in future with a pinch of salt.
Similarly I feel Mike might get most bang for buck out of it due to the sheer amount of bass in his room, mine challenging but not in the same ball park, and floor borne isolation more the key for me, not bass direct from the speakers, so 5 tiers horizontal isolation from my isis will be hard to beat.

I think the take home message is that no matter what one can afford, audiophiles should think about where and what they're placing their equipment. Just as where in the room the equipment is situated eg. in a node or peak, can affect the sound. Far too many just plunk the gear down on their rubber feet and forget about it. I've seen audiophiles place amplifiers on rugs and make a $10,000 piece sound like a Sony receiver.

What's very amusing to me is that back in the early '90s, I approached Frank Doris with an idea of writing an article on vibration isolation of turntables using the Kinetic systems platforms since we used them in my lab. Frank OK'd it but when I talked with our rep, who then talked with the President of the company, Kinetic Systems had no interest in the audio market. Funny how money talks.

 

[PeterA]

What's very amusing to me is that back in the early '90s, I approached Frank Doris with an idea of writing an article on vibration isolation of turntables using the Kinetic systems platforms since we used them in my lab. Frank OK'd it but when I talked with our rep, who then talked with the President of the company, Kinetic Systems had no interest in the audio market. Funny how money talks.

That is interesting. Kinetic Systems is the company that makes Vibraplane. I've seen the factory near Boston and it is one serious operation. Some of their larger isolation tables are massive.

Steve Klein, owner of Sounds of Silence, the distributor of the Vibraplane, is one of the early proponents of this kind of isolation for audio products. He told me that he approached many isolation companies with the idea of adapting a design for audio use. After many attempts Steve finally convinced Kinetic Systems to do just that. I'm not sure it was the first. Others followed and here we are.

There could be a whole new thread on the merits of an isolating rack like the HRS or Symposium versus an ultra rigid rack like the Adona or many DIY projects designed to use active or passive isolation platforms under components.

My whole system is isolated, perhaps not to the same degree as these with Herzan tables, with a rack and amp stands that I designed and built to match the aesthetics of my speakers. To these I added three Vibraplanes and five Townshend Seismic Sinks. The total cost to isolated all components is under $10K.

I think as Christian and Mike have pointed out, one must make these decisions based on "system context." As this thread is making clear, some percentage of total system cost could be very well utilized on proper isolation.

As I have suggested before, all systems benefit greatly from a good speaker/listener/room relationship. This is often free or very inexpensive to achieve. After that, as systems reach a certain level, I strongly believe that electrical delivery and effective isolation are the next areas where the cost/benefit equation is most pronounced.

 

[Steve williams]

The main point of this message is that the last few replies by Mike and Jazdoc use more temperate language- gone from active causing earth shattering changes to more additive synergistic improvements. This is surely most likely. I'm going to take all OTT language in future with a pinch of salt.

the way I read the posts as well as everyone else was the comment "orders of magnitude better" which IMO was what set many people off, myself included as I felt this was a very bold claim and then when Jazdoc tempered his comments about what he heard seemed to raise a red flag

The way I see this thread in summary for me at least is the following.

1. The comment that active isolation bettered passive isolation (which in principal it does) BUT we are forgetting that this device has been developed for the use of precision medical instruments such as the electron microscope. In such an application movement by as little as 1 micron can make a huge difference in what is being seen. Is this a benefit when placed under a TT? I'm not sure. It is in theory but is it such that one can truly say that the Herzan trumps the others by virtue of the fact that one can pick it out from the other methods. It is here that I am betting that this is most unlikely

2. A comment was made that the biggest noted improvement was made with passive and even though there were improvements with active isolation it didn't seem as it was as great as from nothing to passive than from passive to active.

3. All systems benefit to some degree or another from isolation techniques whether that be from Herzan, Vibraplane, precision made racks. I will insert my own thought here that I bet one cannot distinguish a system that has either active or passive techniques and would be hard pressed to distinguish between the sound heard from a TT supported by a rack such as that of spiritofthemusic, a TT supported by a Vibraplane or a TT supported by a Herzan. IOW even though the active Herzan is on the bleeding edge of technology, I contend (just my thoughts) that even a trained ear would find it difficult if not impossible to detect any sonic differences between any and/or all of these

4. Does the Herzan work? Absolutely. Are there other techniques that work as well? Almost certainly

5. Caveat Emptor

Just my $0.02 after following this thread from its start

 

[microstrip]

the way I read the posts as well as everyone else was the comment "orders of magnitude better" which IMO was what set many people off, myself included as I felt this was a very bold claim and then when Jazdoc tempered his comments about what he heard seemed to raise a red flag

The way I see this thread in summary for me at least is the following.

1. The comment that active isolation bettered passive isolation (which in principal it does) BUT we are forgetting that this device has been developed for the use of precision medical instruments such as the electron microscope. In such an application movement by as little as 1 micron can make a huge difference in what is being seen. Is this a benefit when placed under a TT? I'm not sure. It is in theory but is it such that one can truly say that the Herzan trumps the others by virtue of the fact that one can pick it out from the other methods. It is here that I am betting that this is most unlikely

2. A comment was made that the biggest noted improvement was made with passive and even though there were improvements with active isolation it didn't seem as it was as great as from nothing to passive than from passive to active.

3. All systems benefit to some degree or another from isolation techniques whether that be from Herzan, Vibraplane, precision made racks. I will insert my own thought here that I bet one cannot distinguish a system that has either active or passive techniques and would be hard pressed to distinguish between the sound heard from a TT supported by a rack such as that of spiritofthemusic, a TT supported by a Vibraplane or a TT supported by a Herzan. IOW even though the active Herzan is on the bleeding edge of technology, I contend (just my thoughts) that even a trained ear would find it difficult if not impossible to detect any sonic differences between any and/or all of these

4. Does the Herzan work? Absolutely. Are there other techniques that work as well? Almost certainly

5. Caveat Emptor

Just my $0.02 after following this thread from its start

I would add a point 6.

Active isolation tables using piezzo sensors and actuators are not only isolation devices - they have some capability of cancelling the intrinsic vibrations of the equipment coupled to them.

 

[jazdoc]

the way I read the posts as well as everyone else was the comment "orders of magnitude better" which IMO was what set many people off, myself included as I felt this was a very bold claim and then when Jazdoc tempered his comments about what he heard seemed to raise a red flag

The way I see this thread in summary for me at least is the following.

1. The comment that active isolation bettered passive isolation (which in principal it does) BUT we are forgetting that this device has been developed for the use of precision medical instruments such as the electron microscope. In such an application movement by as little as 1 micron can make a huge difference in what is being seen. Is this a benefit when placed under a TT? I'm not sure. It is in theory but is it such that one can truly say that the Herzan trumps the others by virtue of the fact that one can pick it out from the other methods. It is here that I am betting that this is most unlikely

2. A comment was made that the biggest noted improvement was made with passive and even though there were improvements with active isolation it didn't seem as it was as great as from nothing to passive than from passive to active.

3. All systems benefit to some degree or another from isolation techniques whether that be from Herzan, Vibraplane, precision made racks. I will insert my own thought here that I bet one cannot distinguish a system that has either active or passive techniques and would be hard pressed to distinguish between the sound heard from a TT supported by a rack such as that of spiritofthemusic, a TT supported by a Vibraplane or a TT supported by a Herzan. IOW even though the active Herzan is on the bleeding edge of technology, I contend (just my thoughts) that even a trained ear would find it difficult if not impossible to detect any sonic differences between any and/or all of these

4. Does the Herzan work? Absolutely. Are there other techniques that work as well? Almost certainly

5. Caveat Emptor

Just my $0.02 after following this thread from its start

Steve, just a few thoughts about your comments. Please take in the spirit of well meaning give and take by someone who has actually heard the Herzan product in one very fine system (and his experience with passive rack isolation via SRA and EquaRack products):

1. As always, implementation is as important as technique...I am reminded of the endless, unresolvable debates about which turntable drive is the best...I've heard poor and great examples of all types.

2. This was what I heard yesterday...With additional listening, I am open to the idea that my initial impressions are wrong. (A shocking admission on an audio forum!)

3. I completely agree that "all systems benefit to some degree or another from isolation techniques".

I would disagree with your null hypothesis that "one cannot distinguish a system that has either active or passive techniques". Going from 'passive' to 'active' on the Herzan was clearly audible under Mike's turntable (albiet less so under the preamp). I suspect you would concur if you heard a demo. Unfortunately, it would be prohibitively difficult to do controlled A/B testing of various racks, passive and active isolation devices. That people will naturally defend their individual choices/purchases is unsurprising (known by the unfortunate term of 'endowment effect').

4. "Does the Herzan work? Absolutely." Agreed

"Are there other techniques that work as well?" I do not have enough data to make a definitive statement

5. Always!

 

[Steve williams]

I would disagree with your null hypothesis that "one cannot distinguish a system that has either active or passive techniques". Going from 'passive' to 'active' on the Herzan was clearly audible under Mike's turntable (albiet less so under the preamp). I suspect you would concur if you heard a demo

perhaps I would hear the difference but I am not getting the impression from reading your comments that it was orders of magnitude difference and this seems to be the biggest obstacle that all of us who read this are trying to understand

 

[jazdoc]

perhaps I would hear the difference but I am not getting the impression from reading your comments that it was orders of magnitude difference and this seems to be the biggest obstacle that all of us who read this are trying to understand

Steve, I can only comment on my impressions and would never attempt to tell people what they are hearing or should be hearing. IMO, given your considerable investment in dedicated listening room and gear, the cost of demoing in your own system constitutes the proverbial 'fart in the windstorm'

 

[ack]

the way I read the posts as well as everyone else was the comment "orders of magnitude better" which IMO was what set many people off, myself included as I felt this was a very bold claim and then when Jazdoc tempered his comments about what he heard seemed to raise a red flag

The way I see this thread in summary for me at least is the following.

1. The comment that active isolation bettered passive isolation (which in principal it does) BUT we are forgetting that this device has been developed for the use of precision medical instruments such as the electron microscope. In such an application movement by as little as 1 micron can make a huge difference in what is being seen. Is this a benefit when placed under a TT? I'm not sure. It is in theory but is it such that one can truly say that the Herzan trumps the others by virtue of the fact that one can pick it out from the other methods. It is here that I am betting that this is most unlikely

2. A comment was made that the biggest noted improvement was made with passive and even though there were improvements with active isolation it didn't seem as it was as great as from nothing to passive than from passive to active.

3. All systems benefit to some degree or another from isolation techniques whether that be from Herzan, Vibraplane, precision made racks. I will insert my own thought here that I bet one cannot distinguish a system that has either active or passive techniques and would be hard pressed to distinguish between the sound heard from a TT supported by a rack such as that of spiritofthemusic, a TT supported by a Vibraplane or a TT supported by a Herzan. IOW even though the active Herzan is on the bleeding edge of technology, I contend (just my thoughts) that even a trained ear would find it difficult if not impossible to detect any sonic differences between any and/or all of these

4. Does the Herzan work? Absolutely. Are there other techniques that work as well? Almost certainly

5. Caveat Emptor

Just my $0.02 after following this thread from its start

Because platforms like the Herzan are designed for electron microscopes, a good test would be to use it with an electron microscope while at the same time music is being blasted in the environment - can you show that it is as effective in that type of high-feedback environment as in a more quiescent one, or will you still see a blurry image because it allegedly assumes an otherwise quiet working environment in the first place but with some micro vibrations - and micro vibrations is not the only thing you are going to get with speakers blasting the space. A related question is, given its reaction delay, how does that affect things given the complexity of vibrations, which are constantly changing? It does feel an image under the microscope would still be constantly blurry, and if so, passive isolation should fare better.

 

[mep]

I guess to be balanced here, if I was the guy who had seemingly unlimited discretionary income with which to spend money on my stereo system and room, and I ran out of ideas for places in my system and room to throw money at, and I stumbled across the Herzan, I can see why my nose might be up in the air a little bit while sniffing at people that don't have super high resolutions systems like the brilliant system that I put together because they just don't get what the Herzan can do for you. And if that's not a run-on sentence, I don't know what is.

On the other side of that balance are people who read about the guy who has seemingly unlimited discretionary income to spend on their stereo system and everything they buy elevates their system to some new astonishing level that just can't be beat until they buy their next widget which made the previous incarnation of their system sound horrible by comparison. Since major improvements in audio reproduction tend to move at a glacial pace which is evidenced by the fact that many still listen to vacuum tubes, maybe we should have an official epiphany limit per month on WBF for every member. Maybe you can only be allowed to have one major epiphany and two minor epiphanies per month.

And since I put a smiley face after my last paragraph, that makes everything OK on WBF.

 

[ack]

Gee, for a moment I thought Carl was the auteur... Well done Mark

 

[Bill Hart]

I guess to be balanced here, if I was the guy who had seemingly unlimited discretionary income with which to spend money on my stereo system and room, and I ran out of ideas for places in my system and room to throw money at, and I stumbled across the Herzan, I can see why my nose might be up in the air a little bit while sniffing at people that don't have super high resolutions systems like the brilliant system that I put together because they just don't get what the Herzan can do for you. And if that's not a run-on sentence, I don't what is.

On the other side of that balance are people who read about the guy who has seemingly unlimited discretionary income to spend on their stereo system and everything they buy elevates their system to some new astonishing level that just can't be beat until they buy their next widget which made the previous incarnation of their system sound horrible by comparison. Since major improvements in audio reproduction tend to move at a glacial pace which is evidenced by the fact that many still listen to vacuum tubes, maybe we should have an official epiphany limit per month on WBF for every member. Maybe you can only be allowed to have one major epiphany and two minor epiphanies per month.

And since I put a smiley face after my last paragraph, that makes everything OK on WBF.

MEP, to be fair to Mike and Christian, I didn't get a "Grey Poupon" attitude from either of them. I'm glad both are test bunnies- that's how we suss out stuff- early adopters, etc.
Thirty years ago, people were properly rolling their eyes over tiptoes and power cords.

 

[rockitman]

MEP, to be fair to Mike and Christian, I didn't get a "Grey Poupon" attitude from either of them. I'm glad both are test bunnies- that's how we suss out stuff- early adopters, etc.
Thirty years ago, people were properly rolling their eyes over tiptoes and power cords.

Well I have to admit, this thread is starting to get tiring having to provide a defense so to speak for our expenditures on active isolation. The antagonists are making statements based on no real first hand experience. I certainly don't spend money on my stereo for the hell of it. If I hadn't tried the expensive stillpoint devices and realized their real benefit, I Probably would not have gotten this 12k isolation shelf. The point is, I don't take spending money lightly. There must be a real benefit for me to change something. This item was a no risk proposition. If I didn't like it I could return it. Having my first unit go bad after 2weeks and having to wait another 3 for a replacement, my vinyl playback suffered and I missed it terribly. I can assure the detractors that the benefits are real and very significant, at least for my TT setup.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i'm gone fish'n.