Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.

[Ron Resnick]

I do not think it is overkill. I am considering that myself.

Herzan's website says that placing the Herzan directly on the floor is ideal.

 

[rockitman]

Does this active device work well if placed on the floor directly? Is power amp on the active device overkill?

Floor is great. I would love to try it under my amps but that would require 2 units for a total of $27,000. Maybe someday.

 

[PeterA]

Floor is great. I would love to try it under my amps but that would require 2 units for a total of $27,000. Maybe someday.

As crazy as it sounds to putt this level of isolation under SS amps, I must say, my Pass XA160.5 do indeed benefit from being placed on Vibraplanes. There should be positive results from a Herzan also. I have wondered about replacing the small rubber feet of my amps with spikes or some other energy draining devices and then on a heavy steel platform to absorb that energy. Then placing all of it on top of an isolation device like a Vibraplane or Herzan. But, the amps were voiced with the rubber feet, so I have not experimented with this.

 

[ddk]

As crazy as it sounds to putt this level of isolation under SS amps, I must say, my Pass XA160.5 do indeed benefit from being placed on Vibraplanes. There should be positive results from a Herzan also. I have wondered about replacing the small rubber feet of my amps with spikes or some other energy draining devices and then on a heavy steel platform to absorb that energy. Then placing all of it on top of an isolation device like a Vibraplane or Herzan. But, the amps were voiced with the rubber feet, so I have not experimented with this.

View attachment 31382

IME leave the feet alone Peter, for a real shot in the arm try a vibraplane or herzan under you phono stage !

david

 

[Stacore]

As crazy as it sounds to putt this level of isolation under SS amps, I must say, my Pass XA160.5 do indeed benefit from being placed on Vibraplanes.

This is a mysterious effect I have also been observing--SS amps do benefit from a proper vibration control! No clear idea why,
but I have two little theories why so: a reasonable and a crazy.
The reasonable is that big caps in the ps are sensitive. The crazy one is the piezoelectric effect in vibrating semiconductors.
Rubber feet - what if you try some well damped harder material, maybe teflon?

 

[PeterA]

IME leave the feet alone Peter, for a real shot in the arm try a vibraplane or herzan under you phono stage !

david

Would love to. But, now you are talking about space on the rack and approaching the compromises that I have with my system located in the living room. A dedicated audio room is my dream, and much more would be possible in such an environment. I do have the pre amp and phono stage, plus their two power supplies, on four dedicated Townshend Seismic Sink air isolation platforms. They are old technology, and certainly not as effective as a Vibraplane or Harzan, but they are thin profile and work in the rack. And they are cheap if you can still find one. They do help.

I still like the idea of draining internal vibrational energy down and away from the component into a heavy mass, which in turn sits on active or passive isolation to address floor borne vibrations. Internal vibrations are an issue in turntables and electronics and should be dealt with through mass or drainage.

I am waiting to see photos of a system where every piece of gear is separate and on its own Herzan platform without racks along a side wall. Can you image the result and expense of such an arrangement?

 

[PeterA]

This is a mysterious effect I have also been observing--SS amps do benefit from a proper vibration control! No clear idea why,
but I have two little theories why so: a reasonable and a crazy.
The reasonable is that big caps in the ps are sensitive. The crazy one is the piezoelectric effect in vibrating semiconductors.
Rubber feet - what if you try some well damped harder material, maybe teflon?

Interesting. I have seen electronics supported by wooden blocks as feet. My thinking is that the internal vibrations inside the amps should be drained down and absorbed by the massive 136 lb steel ballast plate above the Vibraplane. The Vibraplane is another 150 lbs of steel, so together, that is a lot of mass into which those vibrations can be absorbed.

 

[Ron Resnick]

David - I am planning to put the Io control unit on a Herzan.

 

[Steve williams]

why the control unit and not the phono stage

 

[Ron Resnick]

The control unit is the phono (the entire amplification) stage -- all in one box except for the outboard mono power supplies.

 

[Stacore]

Interesting. I have seen electronics supported by wooden blocks as feet. My thinking is that the internal vibrations inside the amps should be drained down and absorbed by the massive 136 lb steel ballast plate above the Vibraplane. The Vibraplane is another 150 lbs of steel, so together, that is a lot of mass into which those vibrations can be absorbed.

I'd rather say that what you observe is the effect of your electronics being cut from the OUTSIDE vibrations, both structural (ground, building, floor, rack) and, the worst, acoustical feedback from the loudspeakers.
BTW steel rings, but for microscopes/scales etc for which those platforms were initially designed, this does not matter.
Trying different feet would for sure be some fun, but as pointed above its much more fun to try under different components.
Generally, the closer to the source, the more effect. But I strongly encourage to go against the grain and try under loudspeakers

 

[Steve williams]

The control unit is the phono (the entire amplification) stage -- all in one box except for the outboard mono power supplies.

my misunderstanding

 

[ddk]

One thing to consider Ron is that high end rack's like Steve's and some others also bring a lot to the mix, I wouldn't discount them in favor of active platforms. Audio electronics have nothing in common with microscopes there's a lot of conjecture about isolation from very low level frequencies as if it's a common daily occurrence in everyone's listening rooms. If that was true none of us would be able to stand listening for long, lots of studies out there on the side effects of low frequencies on human anatomy and levels of discomfort that it creates. AFAIK there are no measurements or scientific analysis offered showing what aspect of an active isolation platform benefits electronics and sound. Maybe it's just the additional stiffness it offers over a basic platform that's doing it, in that case the effect is reproducible with passive solutions too. Resonance & internal mechanical energy have also been mentioned, no reason why they can't be effectively dealt with by passive designs. I've heard very similar sonic improvements from both active & good passive products, don't jump to conclusions without trying YMMV from someone else's .

david

 

[Halcro]

Dear Halcro,

Congratulations on your vibration control success and welcome to the club of vibration-free listeners

Thank you Stacore,

Reading your Post is confirmation of what I'm experiencing with the Herzan. You appear to be in the 'Isolation' industry.....
Would be interesting to read about your products....

 

[Halcro]

I just clicked on your moniker Stacore and went straight to your Website.
Great stuff... but the weight, even of your 'Basic' table at 62Kg is almost double that of the Herzan TS-140
Yet their stand is filled with piezo-electric activators and yours is filled with......air?

Will you be at Munich this year as I'll be hopefully going....?

 

[Stacore]

One thing to consider Ron is that high end rack's like Steve's and some others also bring a lot to the mix, I wouldn't discount them in favor of an active platforms. Audio electronics have nothing in common with microscopes there's a lot of conjecture about isolation from very low level frequencies as if it's a common daily occurrence in everyone's listening rooms. If that was true none of us would be able to stand listening for long, lots of studies out there on the side effects of low frequencies on human anatomy and levels of discomfort that it creates. AFAIK there are no measurements or scientific analysis offered showing what aspect of an active isolation platform benefits electronics and sound. Maybe it's just the additional stiffness it offers over a basic platform that's doing it, in that case the effect is reproducible with passive solutions too. Resonance & internal mechanical energy have also been mentioned, no reason why they can't be effectively dealt with by passive designs. I've heard very similar sonic improvements from both active & good passive products, don't jump to conclusions without trying YMMV from someone else's .

david

Words of wisdom, David ! Microscope platforms, especially active ones, are a great engineering pieces in themselves and I don't want to depreciate them
but let me point that they were designed for...microscopes not audio. And for that job a very good low frequency isolation (sub-sonic) is the main
design goal, while for audio the whole bandwidth, including e.g. material resonances at kHz must be taken into account.
Also very true about no known corelation between a response function of a platform and its sound. Nobody has studied that since there was no need for that.
This is unlike with amplifiers, where there are known some correlations between the harmonic spectra and sound.

 

[Stacore]

I just clicked on your moniker Stacore and went straight to your Website.
Great stuff... but the weight, even of your 'Basic' table at 62Kg is almost double that of the Herzan TS-140
Yet their stand is filled with piezo-electric activators and yours is filled with......air?

Will you be at Munich this year as I'll be hopefully going....?

Dear Henry,

Thank your kind words and your interest in us. I don't want to hijack the threat dedicated to Herzan, so I'll be brief (I'd be very happy to discuss our stuff
in a separate thread or via pm shall be an interest in that). Yes, we use damped air springs (like Vibraplane/Benchmate, Newport, Thorlabs, etc),
so it is a passive design, but designed from the start for audio. The mass is a function of two things: 1) it is a part of the damping
mechanism-the bigger the mass, the lower the influence on it by a given vibration source (e.g. the resonances of a rack generated by listening);
but this mass must be a quality one-damped! 2) the available air springs - the stiffer they are the higher the mass needed to lower their resonances.
For example, PeterA above quoted an extra 130+lb steel plate on top of his 150lb Vibraplane. Its there to lower the self resonant point (make the suspension softer).

Yes, we will be in Munich, we just got an invitation few days ago to come as a Newcommer We were also last year, working under Lampizator, who kindly invited us.

 

[JackD201]

The control unit is the phono (the entire amplification) stage -- all in one box except for the outboard mono power supplies.

As I've always placed both signal and power supply units on filtered platforms, I now wonder on which would there be a more noticeable difference.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Jarek, I've just emailed Stacore and asked Jaroslaw for some info on yr products
Feel free to PM me on this forum
I would v much like to consider yr products for my tt

 

[Stacore]

Answered, check your mail! Thank you