Indeed, having been to your home and having heard your museum of turntables on those high mass racks I can attest that they all sounded fine to my ears. My problem was their overall size and the limited geography I have in my room that precluded their use. It would have saved me a lot of $$$ if I could have gone that route. I am very happy with my overall result and what it has done to lower my perceived sound floor to virtually non existent so I am a big supporter behind Joe's science
We always agreed that CMS is one of the finest platforms on the market and you couldn't have done better Steve! Cost & affordability is relative for each person so I didn't even bring it up. Also we're only discussing a dedicated stand for a particular type of turntable and not equipment racks.
plug and play is always tempting. you are sitting there committed to a big heavy turntable and trying to plan for the ideal solution. it's not trivial to try different methods of support. you either have to take someone else's word for what that 'ideal' might be, or investigate for yourself when you finally have things set up. I'm with Peter leaning toward the latter.
your system is not going through the normal evolution 'in place'; you are intending/trying/hoping to 'hatch' it fully realized. that is fun to talk about but daunting to actually execute. synergy is typically an earned process and not attained theoretically. keep your mind and ears open to things.
btw; I would be going through the same mental process as you are, were I in your shoes. wanting to plan everything out just right. best wishes working it all out and enjoy the process.
Yes, Mike, it is difficult to "hatch" a system with new speakers and new LP front-end components. I definitely have to hope to get lucky with the result.
It is not a good idea to make these decisions theoretically. Still, I am optimistic that I, at least, will like the result!
The thing about dedicated turntable isolation solutions is that they don't transform turds into chocolate. The better the turntable that is placed upon an isolation platform, the more transforming the result. How so transforming if it is already a great turntable? Simply because the thing that is holding the vast majority of great turntables back is, seismic pollution.
The combination of great turntable and excellent isolation in a superb system, is spellbinding replay of records.
Racks like CMS, SR, etc. are very fine products and work as advertised as do properly designed high mass racks. I haven't tried a CMS or SR under any of my tables but I have tried other active & passive solutions and found out that while great with electronics they alter the sound to some degree with my particular tts. I got the best results from a solid, massive foundation topped with a 1/2" or 3/4" slab of steel. It's still what I recommend for high massed tts, they work very well and you always have the option to add/try a platform from specialists.
David, Are your steel tops ferromagnetic or some non-magnetic alloy -- or does that not matter either way for the sound?
Do you just place the steel top on the four top corners of the stand? What if the four corner tops are not exactly the same height? What if the underside of the top is not perfectly flat?
Would you use a thin layer of sorbothane or something so the top rests flat on the top of the stand?
Would you use something adjustable like threaded Mod Squad TipToes to level the top at the corners so the top is steady and rigid on the corners of the stand?
The thing about dedicated turntable isolation solutions is that they don't transform turds into chocolate. The better the turntable that is placed upon an isolation platform, the more transforming the result. How so transforming if it is already a great turntable? Simply because the thing that is holding the vast majority of great turntables back is, seismic pollution.
The combination of great turntable and excellent isolation in a superb system, is spellbinding replay of records.
Two days ago, I placed a minus K BM-8 (a passive isolation device) under my SME 20/2 TT. The result is indeed so spellbinding that I want to replay every record in my library!
Thank you for posting this link. There is a bewildering array of top plate options from this company. Have you used a top plate from this company yourself?
Herzan has been extremely responsive and helpful with several questions I have asked them in writing.
As evidenced by the damped top plate (with a visco-elastic layer underneath the top plate) of Christian's new custom Herzan stand, Herzan sees merit in a vibration absorbing layer somewhere underneath the Herzan active isolation platform to absorb vibrations above 1,000 hertz.
I have used a Symposium Svelte Shelf (under a Playback Designs MPS-5) on top of my darTZeel NHB-18NS preamp which sat on a Herzan TS-150 active device. I also used 4 Wave Kinetics A10 U8 footers under the Svelte Shelf and above the dart pre. below the dart pre were 6 more A10 U8's between it and the Herzan. so it was a passive device sandwich combining 2 sets of one passive product combined with another on top of an active device.
I inserted these various steps one at a time over a few months so was able to determine I was getting additional benefit with each step. my only reason for inserting the Svelte Shelf was to eliminate noise due to proximity from my digital affecting the phono stage performance inside the dart pre. the Svelte Shelf operated as a sort of faraday cage. when I inserted the Svelte Shelf I did not notice any change to my digital player, but the noise was gone from the phono stage performance.
combining active and passive devices is a crap shoot. you have to try it and see. but you do need to always try to eliminate any compliance or passive device from below the active device as it will compromise the performance and possibly damage the active device......as the 'soft' passive device could possibly cause the active device to continually try to compensate and burn itself out. active needs a stiff solid base.
I have no doubt that an active shelf the appropriate size would benefit the Lampizator. I have a Lampizator Golden Gate right now sitting on A10-U8 footers. if I had an extra Herzan TS-140 I would confidently use it under the GG. the chassis size of the GG does require a large size active shelf.
Mike, Have you ever experimented with A10-U8 footers directly underneath or indirectly under (meaning the footers were under an intermediate shelf which was underneath) the Herzan active isolation platform under a turntable?
Two days ago, I placed a minus K BM-8 (a passive isolation device) under my SME 20/2 TT. The result is indeed so spellbinding that I want to replay every record in my library! View attachment 30323
Is every level or shelf underneath the Minus K platform rigidly solid to the floor (meaning no intermediate visco-elastic or otherwise squishy materials anywhere beneath the Minus K box)?
They're slabs of regular magnetic steel, no problem with sound it's the platter that you want nonmagnetic.
There are 4 rubber gaskets in the 4 corners where the slab sits on the steel table. I'm not familiar with your rack, I can level the steel table with it's adjustable threaded feet or level the tt itself using it's threaded feet. Definitely won't use any pointy feet under the steel slab, for one I don't like metal on metal and 2nd I see no logical use for narrow pointed footers under that much weight. I don't even see how they do anything useful there. Sorbothane reacts to temperature and changes shape and thickness affecting level. Thick rubber gasket or a layer of industrial rubber, the type they use under machinery in factories is what I find works best.
David, Are your steel tops ferromagnetic or some non-magnetic alloy -- or does that not matter either way for the sound?
Do you just place the steel top on the four top corners of the stand? What if the four corner tops are not exactly the same height? What if the underside of the top is not perfectly flat?
Would you use a thin layer of sorbothane or something so the top rests flat on the top of the stand?
Would you use something adjustable like threaded Mod Squad TipToes to level the top at the corners so the top is steady and rigid on the corners of the stand?
But why is steel slab good? What I read suggests steel slab rings (unless it is layered and laminated).
I understand that natural granite may ring, but Corian or engineered granite such as Caesarstone seem to have better vibration damping properties than steel.
Also the metal honeycomb core or composite table tops by TMC and Kinetic Systems used for optical microscope platforms seem to have much better damping properties than steel slab.
Is every level or shelf underneath the Minus K platform rigidly solid to the floor (meaning no intermediate visco-elastic or otherwise squishy materials anywhere beneath the Minus K box)?
Yes. It is an ancient Billy Bags 3 shelf, double wide shelf unit which has spikes on all 6 feet, directly coupling it to the floor which is the suspended type. Thus it is subject to vibrations transferred from the floor. All the other components sit on Stillpoints. No "squishy" material whatsoever.
I understand that natural granite may ring, but Corian or engineered granite such as Caesarstone seem to have better vibration damping properties than steel.
Have you tried a 200lb-300lb slab of solid steel to know if it rings or not ? Of course you can use Corian, Ceasarstone, granite, etc. and there are ways to deal with all of them but I prefer solid steel best.
Also the metal honeycomb core or composite table tops by TMC and Kinetic Systems used for optical microscope platforms seem to have much better damping properties than steel slab.
Mass to begin with! I don't always want damping and when I do I want to be able to control how much and what materials to use, the honeycombs, breadboards, carbon fiber, moon dirt, etc. are generic solutions that might or might not work for one's application while the steel is a solid inert platform that IME has works perfectly for most of my audio applications and if needed I can easily control some unwanted resonance with different kinds of top layers. There's a huge difference between resonance control & damping, each has it's place.
Edit- To be clear Ron, I'm not claiming that this is the only way or the best way just the best solution for my needs!
Mike, Have you ever experimented with A10-U8 footers directly underneath or indirectly under (meaning the footers were under an intermediate shelf which was underneath) the Herzan active isolation platform under a turntable?
no. I have not experimented with any 'compliance' layer below the Herzan for either my TS-140 under my tt, and my TS-150 under my dart pre. my information up to this point has been in conflict with this.
i'll have to research this question to try and understand the science or logic for this approach. if this is what they told Christian then no doubt it has merit. I just need to investigate to comment.
I think this is counter to the science at work. I would not add a compliant structure under an active isolation device. I have never seen this done in any of my scientific career. I would think Mike has it set up correctly.
Ron, I have 136 pound steel ballast plate underneath my turntable on top of my Vibraplane. There is nothing soft below the Viber plane The steel ballast plate plus the steel of the Vibraplane act as a sink for vibrations that leave the turntable. I agree with David that mass is good and would prefer solid steel for a component like a turntable which has its own vibrations and they need to leave the turntable Microscopes that are used on top of them is breadboards do not have their own internal vibrations like a turntable does. I like everything I'm sure there are different solutions that work well.
