Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.
- Thread starter rockitman
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Congratulations, Christian. That certainly looks solid. Did you consider having Herzan build a slightly larger top plate sized to accommodate the TechDas? I wonder how the sound would change without the HRS platform.
Also, now that it's been a while since you got your two phono sections back, do you find yourself listening to one more than the other?
Also, now that it's been a while since you got your two phono sections back, do you find yourself listening to one more than the other?
I suppose a larger top plate on top of the TS140 to accommodate the AF1 footprint is certainly an option. I bought the HRS shelf before considering using the AF1 on the TS140. Considering its cost and ideal indents for the feet of the TT and motor...I elected to use it. I commented a bit in the Lamm 2.1 thread. Bottom line the are both great phono stages. Variety is nice. I have been using the Lamm mostly since it arrived but have starting listening to the Allnic more to try to figure out how they differ and how they are a like. They both sound so good...it's hard to make objective comments on subjective observation...lol Time will tell. Right now I use the Allnic for mono and my other TT. The Lamm is for the Graham Elite arm/koetsu Coralstone setup in the 70dB sut.
The tubes are hollow. I suppose steel shot could be added upon request. The gauge of the box tube is quite thick but I don't know what it's measurement is. No audiophile mark-up what so ever. Refreshing !
I have just stumbled on this thread after hearing an accurion on a lampizator dac in action. I was impressed by the improvement on the lampi having auditioned it prior without the platform. I would like to know if this may be better than a symposium ultra platform which I now use. Would a component resting on a symposium which rest on a herzan or accurion be better than having the equipment on just the active platform? Is it preferred to have the platform on 24/7 or switch it on when needed better for its lifespan? Appreciate thoughts and views or sharing of experience.
I have used a Symposium Svelte Shelf (under a Playback Designs MPS-5) on top of my darTZeel NHB-18NS preamp which sat on a Herzan TS-150 active device. I also used 4 Wave Kinetics A10 U8 footers under the Svelte Shelf and above the dart pre. below the dart pre were 6 more A10 U8's between it and the Herzan. so it was a passive device sandwich combining 2 sets of one passive product combined with another on top of an active device.
I inserted these various steps one at a time over a few months so was able to determine I was getting additional benefit with each step. my only reason for inserting the Svelte Shelf was to eliminate noise due to proximity from my digital affecting the phono stage performance inside the dart pre. the Svelte Shelf operated as a sort of faraday cage. when I inserted the Svelte Shelf I did not notice any change to my digital player, but the noise was gone from the phono stage performance.
combining active and passive devices is a crap shoot. you have to try it and see. but you do need to always try to eliminate any compliance or passive device from below the active device as it will compromise the performance and possibly damage the active device......as the 'soft' passive device could possibly cause the active device to continually try to compensate and burn itself out. active needs a stiff solid base.
I have no doubt that an active shelf the appropriate size would benefit the Lampizator. I have a Lampizator Golden Gate right now sitting on A10-U8 footers. if I had an extra Herzan TS-140 I would confidently use it under the GG. the chassis size of the GG does require a large size active shelf.
Thanks for your contributions to this fascinating and long thread. I'm very interested in a Vibraplane-type solution for my system, but I'm curious about where you and other active vibration control enthusiasts place the *compressor*. Where and how do you arrange placement. My system is on ground floor with no convenient storage area nearby or underfoot. Would appreciate your insights on this. Jim (goheelz)
You are most welcome, Jim. I must correct you though. My Vibraplanes do have automatic level control, but they are not considered to be "active" isolation devices. They are passive, pneumatic, platforms. All three of my units are connected to the compressor and are set for 80lbs pressure. Two of the units have self or automatic leveling, meaning that when a footer looses some air, the sensor picks that up and it is automatically refilled. Once set with a level, it always stays level. My third unit, does not have this feature. I have to fill it manually by pushing in a switch which corresponds to a particular footer. This is not a big deal, but it does take time and is not as convenient, but it is very easy to do. I could also fill it with a bicycle pump if need be.
As for the compressor, I used to have it in the basement connected by 20' long very thin black plastic tubing to each Vibraplane. I plan to put it back in the basement. I was doing some diagnostics and it was more convenient to have it near the units. It is surprisingly small. You can contact Sounds of Silence, the Vibraplane distributor for advice.
For placement, you could find a closet or slip it behind a piece of furniture somewhere. All you need is a 1/8th hole through the floor or wall to run the tubing. It is sold in 50' rolls. You might also be able to have an electrician snake it along a wire or cable through the walls or conduit and out an outlet. That would be neat and clean.
I have not compared my units to one of the active units like Herzan, so I don't know if they sound different. It may also depend on the type of component one is isolating. Up thread there was some discussion about some types of suspended turntables reacting poorly to the constant correcting of an active unit. I don't know about that. My Vibraplanes work great under my SS amps and my suspended SME turntable. They cost about $2,500 each plus the $500 compressor, so for $8,000 retail, I have good, but perhaps not the best, isolation available for three components, compared to $8-12K for an active type device.
You can have a compressor outside and run a hose to what you need, for indoor use a jun-air quiet air compressor is an excellent choice anywhere in the listening space or nearby space.
http://www.jun-air.com/product_overview_quiet_air.aspx
david
Sorry about my faulty nomenclature and misunderstanding about your Vibraplane system. I was mistaken to presume that having a compressor hooked up to the platforms constituted an "active" system. Your advice about remote location of the compressor may be quite helpful in my situation.
Currently, I'm using a Gingko isolation platform under my turntable. It's inexpensive and definitely a true "passive" device using squash balls as rollers under the top platform to help it float, as you may know. I noticed improvement immediately when I installed this item several years ago, particularly at higher volumes. You mention the option of using a hand pump to adjust one of the Vibraplanes. I wonder why that might not serve just as well as a compressor that runs only rarely to keep your preferred 80 psi in the Vibraplanes. My road bike tires take higher pressure and don't need to be filled all that often. I also wonder whether the Gingko (let's call it Stage 1 vibration control) is far less effective than the passive Vibraplanes you're running (Stage 2 seems the right term here). As you note, the Herzan or other true-active solutions (Stage 3 vibration control) are intriguing at a higher costs. One wonders about how much improvement will be seen. One also wonders whether some Stage 3 devices work without requiring an air compressor.
Thanks again for your good insights. Love the great system description you've posted, by the way. Clearly, it's also time for me to have a talk with the Vibraplane distributor to get additional specs and info.
for the sake of clarity, I will point out that an 'active' system essentially means that the isolating device can stop and start based on input from sensors. it 'offsets and neutralizes' the sensed resonance. passive systems are essentially springs, they offset loads and settle and overshoot. this is a massive over-simplification since passive devices have such a wide range of execution.
for every action (incoming vibration) there is an equal and opposite reaction (TS 140). Newton's 3rd law.
goheelz, If you plan to use a Vibraplane under a turntable, I strongly suggest you buy the model which has automatic and self leveling footers. You do not want to have to fill with a bicycle pump and level the footers each time you do so. It is way too much hassle. The automatic self leveling footers are so much easier. I suggest you contact Steve Klein of Sounds of Silence. He can answer all of your questions and this thread can go back on topic to the Active Herzan device.
It works
After a longer pause i finally got my system nearly complete. The heavy old Copulare Rack seems a good Stand for my Herzan TS-140.
The first try was to put on the Transrotor Fat Bob s Turntable direct on the Herzan, but this was counterproductive. The Transrotor Motor
generates intense vibrations at 45 rpm. I had one Copulare Base Plate (sand filled multiplex wood) left, so i could use it under the Fat Bob
TT and it works. The 3 lines in the Herzan Display a more linear than before, the Herzan Motors are not permanently intervene to adjust.
(sorry for my bad english, my german is much better...) some photos attached.
Regards
Thomas
After a longer pause i finally got my system nearly complete. The heavy old Copulare Rack seems a good Stand for my Herzan TS-140.
The first try was to put on the Transrotor Fat Bob s Turntable direct on the Herzan, but this was counterproductive. The Transrotor Motor
generates intense vibrations at 45 rpm. I had one Copulare Base Plate (sand filled multiplex wood) left, so i could use it under the Fat Bob
TT and it works. The 3 lines in the Herzan Display a more linear than before, the Herzan Motors are not permanently intervene to adjust.
(sorry for my bad english, my german is much better...) some photos attached.
Regards
Thomas
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My heavy stand is a custom job made such that the top of each leg at each corner is plain metal. I am looking for a new top plate, as the one I use from VPI was never reassuringly solid (it is only MDF).
I found a company that makes heavy, well-machined granite top plates, but with a thin layer of silicone underneath to provide some passive vibration damping. This silicone layer bonded to the underside of the granite plate would also have the effect of conforming a little bit to the metal tops of the legs at each corner.
I wonder if even this layer of silicone would not be the right answer if I were to use a Herzan on top of the granite plate.
It would be nice to allow the silicone layer underneath to "melt" into the tops of the metal corner posts in case the tops of the four corner posts are not perfectly the same height, but not if even that thin layer of damping might make the granite plate not perfectly stiff and solid and optimal for the Herzan.
What do you think, Mike? Has anyone else experimented with a similar situation?
Wow Ron!
--just read you've gone for the BIG Kahuna!!--the Thorens Reference--great table. I've heard them in Europe when I lived there--absolutely solid and formidable sonic presentation-mucho Kudos!!
Anyway looks as if things coming together for you nicely!
Firstly Are you sure you need the Vibration "controlling" base with that beauty? If I recall it is so over engineered with its suspension--you may want to save your $$$'s --I'm sure David will advise more on this so --
Platforms and bases--
Firstly I do not have the Herzan--Mike is the expert there but being of Poor wallet I have the Minus K
I considered the Vibraplane but I have friend with the TechDas who used the V but sold it as he found it rang like a Bell(?)--his observations not mine I did not actually hear it
Whilst my usage is not with an Active Platform I admit I have experimented with various "supports /bases" under the TT placed on such Vibration "controlling"platforms.
My TT's used are Simon York /Shindo 301 System/Dr Feickert BBII.
My test showed--
All the TTs suffered from straight placement on the "bare" platform top
Sonics improved with either Air Dried Maple blocks-- both 2" and 4" thickness-- I would have like to have tried Ebony but alas not available but I have used Giant Shun Mooks(3) under all my tables anyway.
Simon York endorsed the Silestone Platforms-- he stated to me NOT Granite---
I used one of Black Silestone ones custom made by a Kitchen provider also excellent but tad forward sounding I felt.
As for the silicon Damping you mentioned--I'd forgo that YVMV.
Just my observations and Congrats agin on that great Turntable /Combo
Good Listening
BruceD
--just read you've gone for the BIG Kahuna
!!--the Thorens Reference--great table. I've heard them in Europe when I lived there--absolutely solid and formidable sonic presentation-mucho Kudos!!Anyway looks as if things coming together for you nicely!
Firstly Are you sure you need the Vibration "controlling" base with that beauty? If I recall it is so over engineered with its suspension--you may want to save your $$$'s --I'm sure David will advise more on this so --
Platforms and bases--
Firstly I do not have the Herzan--Mike is the expert there but being of Poor wallet I have the Minus K
I considered the Vibraplane but I have friend with the TechDas who used the V but sold it as he found it rang like a Bell(?)--his observations not mine I did not actually hear it
Whilst my usage is not with an Active Platform I admit I have experimented with various "supports /bases" under the TT placed on such Vibration "controlling"platforms.
My TT's used are Simon York /Shindo 301 System/Dr Feickert BBII.
My test showed--
All the TTs suffered from straight placement on the "bare" platform top
Sonics improved with either Air Dried Maple blocks-- both 2" and 4" thickness-- I would have like to have tried Ebony but alas not available but I have used Giant Shun Mooks(3) under all my tables anyway.
Simon York endorsed the Silestone Platforms-- he stated to me NOT Granite---
I used one of Black Silestone ones custom made by a Kitchen provider also excellent but tad forward sounding I felt.
As for the silicon Damping you mentioned--I'd forgo that YVMV.
Just my observations and Congrats agin on that great Turntable /Combo
Good Listening
BruceD
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