It certainly does. The benefits of good isolation for turntables have been known for quite some time. Though not as effective, the Vibraplane units were considered very good before the active isolation devices started to appear in audio. This is an interesting move by Kuzma.
Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.
- Thread starter rockitman
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It certainly does. The benefits of good isolation for turntables have been known for quite some time. Though not as effective, the Vibraplane units were considered very good before the active isolation devices started to appear in audio. This is an interesting move by Kuzma.
WIthout direct comparison I think is unwise to make such a statement.
I will not get into what sounds better. Vibraplane have several models of which some are active and those were used in Audio too; Vibraplane units are known in their specific industry as being among the best.
One thing that audiophiles should keep in mind is that all scientific equipment such as isolation bases including the Herzan, become available regularly as pre-owned equipment due to the dynamic changes in funding of grants for many investigators which often causes their labs to shut-down.
For example, you can find a great deal on a used Herzan for about 4K at scientific surplus warehouses such as this:
http://www.wwx.com/iinfo.cfm?itemno=162587
For example, you can find a great deal on a used Herzan for about 4K at scientific surplus warehouses such as this:
http://www.wwx.com/iinfo.cfm?itemno=162587
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Two anecdotal reports:
1) A good friend of mine (in whose ears I trust) had a top-of-the-line Brinkmann turntable and Triplanar tonearm on a Herzan platform. I thought the sound from this LP front-end was close to or at state-of-the-art.
He recently replaced this LP front-end with a TechDAS Air Force One and the SAT tonearm. When inquiring about the Herzan he was told by a representative of TechDAS that the active isolation platform would actually raise the resonant frequency of the turntable and he was advised not to use the Herzan with the AF1.
So there is a view, which makes some sense to me, that if a turntable has a complete suspension system then adding the Herzan platform underneath it might not be the right way to go.
2) In 2015 I asked A.J. Conti what he thinks about placing his turntables on an active isolation platform. Even though his turntables have full suspensions he did not dismiss the addition of active isolation addition out of hand.
While he suggested that the active isolation platform might improve the sound by "5%" (he really meant "a little bit" and was not trying actually to quantify the guess) I don't think he has experimented with active isolation platforms under his turntables. A.J. is very open-minded and experimentally-oriented, and until he actually tries an active isolation platform under his turntables and forms an opinion I do not think we should take his initial guess as being dispositive on the question.
1) A good friend of mine (in whose ears I trust) had a top-of-the-line Brinkmann turntable and Triplanar tonearm on a Herzan platform. I thought the sound from this LP front-end was close to or at state-of-the-art.
He recently replaced this LP front-end with a TechDAS Air Force One and the SAT tonearm. When inquiring about the Herzan he was told by a representative of TechDAS that the active isolation platform would actually raise the resonant frequency of the turntable and he was advised not to use the Herzan with the AF1.
So there is a view, which makes some sense to me, that if a turntable has a complete suspension system then adding the Herzan platform underneath it might not be the right way to go.
2) In 2015 I asked A.J. Conti what he thinks about placing his turntables on an active isolation platform. Even though his turntables have full suspensions he did not dismiss the addition of active isolation addition out of hand.
While he suggested that the active isolation platform might improve the sound by "5%" (he really meant "a little bit" and was not trying actually to quantify the guess) I don't think he has experimented with active isolation platforms under his turntables. A.J. is very open-minded and experimentally-oriented, and until he actually tries an active isolation platform under his turntables and forms an opinion I do not think we should take his initial guess as being dispositive on the question.
Has anyone actually directly compared an active platform like the Herzan to a passive, air-bladder type platform like the Vibraplane? I know that the specifications of the active Herzan indicate that it isolates to a lower frequency, but I wonder if the active servos constantly adjusting themselves do create some noise/resonance/vibrations that can be detected by the super sensitive turntable/tonearm/cartridge mechanism.
Someone once suggested the analogy of jitter in digital or the constant hunting/cogging of DD motors in turntables, but I dismissed that not knowing enough about the technology. This has been discussed, perhaps even further up this very thread, but I do not recall if anyone has ever done direct comparisons. I do think the active type platform is more user friendly, needing simply to be plugged in with no need for periodic adjustments.
Someone once suggested the analogy of jitter in digital or the constant hunting/cogging of DD motors in turntables, but I dismissed that not knowing enough about the technology. This has been discussed, perhaps even further up this very thread, but I do not recall if anyone has ever done direct comparisons. I do think the active type platform is more user friendly, needing simply to be plugged in with no need for periodic adjustments.
what would you expect the TechDAS dealer/rep to say? has he personally tested active isolation with the TechDAS?
well......our own Rocketman has debunked that theory. he has his TechDAS AF1 on a Herzan and tells us it takes things a bit further. would it be better if you could eliminate the TechDAS AF1 suspension? maybe the Herzan might net better overall by itself.
I never had my Rockport Sirius III at the same time as my NVS on my Herzan. the Rockport has an active leveling 'passive' air bladder suspension along with an air bearing too. no doubt the NVS-Herzan gets more bass articulation than the Rockport on long time reference pressings.
at the end of the day, any and all passive suspensions (springs, blatters, etc.) are soft......they cannot stop.....they float and overshoot and settle.....active devices can stop and start and are hundreds of times stiffer than passive.
Herzan is located near Irvine and it would be easy to get a demo unit to try for yourself to answer that question. like you say they are plug and play.
Despite being told by the manufacturer that active isolation was "not necessary"for the AF1.... it does improve the performance of the table by a little...but noticeable bit. When you are at a high level...a little bit can mean a lot in the grand scheme of things. I do find those that criticize it w/o trying it first are a bit ingenuous....suspended turntable or not.
I was just reporting!
I know. A few years ago Gary Koh was meeting with Nishakawa-san. Gary was kind enough to ask a question of mine regarding the use of active isolation under the TechDas. His words were... not needed. He did not say it will degrade the sound.
Here's the thread...took a while to find
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?7762-TechDas-Air-Force-One/page59
Guys,
I have no experience with Tach Das, but I have with Bergmann turntables and usually in case of use of 2 different decoupling systems on the same base one decoupling system cancel the another one. If any physicist present, could explain technically. In My experience, yes, it should decrease the performance not just on TechDas but with any product with anti vibration based on decoupling as air bearing or coin suspensions.
I have no experience with Tach Das, but I have with Bergmann turntables and usually in case of use of 2 different decoupling systems on the same base one decoupling system cancel the another one. If any physicist present, could explain technically. In My experience, yes, it should decrease the performance not just on TechDas but with any product with anti vibration based on decoupling as air bearing or coin suspensions.
A scientist will not be able to give you a reliable answer...nor the product manufacturer. You have to do the experiment yourself and decide if it's beneficial or not using your ears. It's really that simple.
I find the scientist's answer and the manufacturer's answer interesting, but I agree with Christian that our ears are, for us subjectivists, the final and only relevant arbiter.
there are two companies which share the patents/technology; Table Stable is Swiss and Halcyonics is German. Halcyonics split off from Table Stable more than a decade ago.
in the USA the Table Stable products are branded as Herzan. it looks like this Kuzma product is a rebranded Halcyonics platform (but could be Table Stable). it may not have active leveling. sometimes Halcyonics deletes that feature to reduce the cost and differentiate product lines.
10 years ago I had a Halcyonics in my room briefly. I now own 2 of the Herzan platforms.
these products really work......and outperform any passive devices when properly used.
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Mike,
thanks for the further infos about this exciting theme.
Do you know why Table Stable/Herzan changed the colour of the TS series from blue to grey ? Are all blue units older models ?
Thomas
thanks for the further infos about this exciting theme.
Do you know why Table Stable/Herzan changed the colour of the TS series from blue to grey ? Are all blue units older models ?
Thomas
Thomas,
I don't really know. my guess it might have to do with sourcing the display components or just a cosmetic freshening of some sort.
the spec of the resonant frequency did not change.
when I bought my 2 Herzan units 3 years ago they were transitioning from the old look to the new one and I did get the newer versions.
Thought I would share my unhappy service experience for my TS-140 active isolation device.
While I liked the device initially when it was working properly for over two years, I have found service by the distributor (Herzan) in Cali to be lacking. After sending the unit back to them twice for service a few months back, they said nothing was wrong with the unit yet it still doesn't work properly in active isolation mode. They are trying to blame my stand when in fact the unit worked properly on the same stand for over two years. Nothing changed other than the unit is periodically malfunctioning. They told me I'm on my own and need to send it to Switzerland.
I just may have to do that since as of now, I use it only as a passive isolation device...it's turned on and levels, but I don't engage active isolation because of the problems it has.....the unit will start resonating/humming when in active mode. Somethimes it's fine, but most of the time it is not and has only gotten worse as of late. This will be quite the expense to send it back to the EU but I have little choice.
The other problem with the unit is it's shipping packaging. When Herzan first serviced the unit it was shipped and damaged during shipping. If the unit gets dropped on it's side during shipping, the top platform as a tendency to pop out and get stuck. There is nothing the user can do but send it back in for service. The last time it was shipped back to me it was done via freight on a pallet so the unit could not be dropped on it's side. That worked. Of course the unit was not fixed by Herzan. The back and fourth with them over two times and over $1200.00 in shipping cost resulted in the unit not being fixed. So I now plan to reach out to Table Stable in Switzerland to hopefully get this thing fixed once an for all so I don't have a $12,000.00 passive paper weight sitting uynder my turntable.
Buyer beware. Herzan should of sent it to Switzerland for me if they were unqualified/unable to fix the problem and they didn't. They felt it was okay to let the customer deal with the headache on their own (me). Not happy and that is poor service, imo.
While I liked the device initially when it was working properly for over two years, I have found service by the distributor (Herzan) in Cali to be lacking. After sending the unit back to them twice for service a few months back, they said nothing was wrong with the unit yet it still doesn't work properly in active isolation mode. They are trying to blame my stand when in fact the unit worked properly on the same stand for over two years. Nothing changed other than the unit is periodically malfunctioning. They told me I'm on my own and need to send it to Switzerland.
I just may have to do that since as of now, I use it only as a passive isolation device...it's turned on and levels, but I don't engage active isolation because of the problems it has.....the unit will start resonating/humming when in active mode. Somethimes it's fine, but most of the time it is not and has only gotten worse as of late. This will be quite the expense to send it back to the EU but I have little choice.
The other problem with the unit is it's shipping packaging. When Herzan first serviced the unit it was shipped and damaged during shipping. If the unit gets dropped on it's side during shipping, the top platform as a tendency to pop out and get stuck. There is nothing the user can do but send it back in for service. The last time it was shipped back to me it was done via freight on a pallet so the unit could not be dropped on it's side. That worked. Of course the unit was not fixed by Herzan. The back and fourth with them over two times and over $1200.00 in shipping cost resulted in the unit not being fixed. So I now plan to reach out to Table Stable in Switzerland to hopefully get this thing fixed once an for all so I don't have a $12,000.00 passive paper weight sitting uynder my turntable.
Buyer beware. Herzan should of sent it to Switzerland for me if they were unqualified/unable to fix the problem and they didn't. They felt it was okay to let the customer deal with the headache on their own (me). Not happy and that is poor service, imo.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
wow, I am surprised they told you there is nothing wrong and you are on your own and have to ship it back to Switzerland
Herzan's office is only 5-6 miles from where I live and I was interested in seeing their set up but not after your experience Christian. Heck it was you and MikeL who put Herzan on the map in the audio industry
Herzan's office is only 5-6 miles from where I live and I was interested in seeing their set up but not after your experience Christian. Heck it was you and MikeL who put Herzan on the map in the audio industry
Yup and yet I got a run around. I have sent an email to Switzerland to get the specifics on where to ship it to Switzerland. Based on it's size and weight, I suspect shipping to be in excess of $600.00 each way excluding repair costs.
well it appears I have jumped to a wrong conclusion. After my contact with Table Stable tech people in Switzerland, they recommended me do a final test to determine if the unit was faulty.
Place the unit on the floor with at least 120lbs and see how it works. (My unit has a preload requirement) since it has the heavy duty spring option that adds 100 additional lbs weight capacity.
I did this on my concrete basement floor. After 24 hours in active isolation mode...the unit is still functioning perfectly. I plan to go 24 more to be sure. In the end...it is not the unit...rather my stereo equipment stand (Adona Zero GXT)...their most heavy duty model. The frustrating and difficult part in all this was accepting my stand was the culprit even though it worked fine for 2 years before I started getting the resonate drift that caused the unit to foul.
So my criticism of Herzan service was unfounded. In essence...the unit was never broken...only the lateral rigidity of my stand. I am working on solutions to correct the issue with this stand or I will have a structural welded square tubular steel machine table made to order to support the TS-140 and my TT. Hopefully I can fix my current stand's rigidity necessary for the TS-140 to function properly.
My apologies for being a somewhat stubborn and difficult customer to deal with goes out to the Herzan team in California.
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