Is It Possible for a Manufacturer to Create a Design that Minimizes the Effects of Cables? Anyone you are familiar with?

caesar

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Is It Possible for a Manufacturer to Create a Design that Minimizes the Effects of Cables?

Obviously, one way to do it is to reduce the number of boxes and provide proprietary connections as dCS has done with Varese. One of their sales pitches is : upgrade cost is not as high , as you need less cables.

But is there anything that a Manufacturer can do in terms of the design itself?

thanks
 
In 2021 I purchased the 3010 and 3060 pre- and power-amps from Boulder. When I bought them Boulder advised that power cables would have no affect on sound. I auditioned several power cables including Transparent Opus, AQ Dragon and Cardas Clear Beyond XL. Non of these had any impact on the sound - they sounded the same as the power cords that came with the amp. My pov was also confirmed by two other people - one of which was the dealer of the cables auditioned.
 
I’m not sure if the “Zeel” connection between the Dartzeel amp/preamp qualifies as minimizing cable effects but it certainly negates any benefits from what most boutique cables claim to offer or any perceived benefit(s) of applying quantum technology to cable designs.
That being said any wireless, Bluetooth, Wi-Fi transmitted signals are immune to any cable effects.
 
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According to @Atmasphere , yes. Cant comment, as I have not heard his gear.
 
Fully Agree Ted .

Audiocomponents need to be made of as many separate boxes as possible .
In order to facilitate the maximum amount of cables / connectors to improve the business sound :)
Well, we do make our products available so people can try them before they buy them. Or…
 
According to @Atmasphere , yes. Cant comment, as I have not heard his gear.
Balanced cables exhibit the same degree of audible variance as do single ended or RCA cables.
 
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Balanced cables exhibit the same degree of audible variance as do single ended or RCA cables.
I believe that subject is not about cables, but about a technical feature of gear (marked as AES 48 in this case) which implemented right might reduce the influence of cables. But, as I have wrote in my previous post, personally cant comment on that as I have never tried Atmasphere gear. Reading forums, it seems that some users are saying that even if the differences among cables are present, they are not necessary for the better, when more expensive cables are used. Perhaps if some of them share their experience here, we might know more
 
Can you please elaborate ? Business aspects aside, what is your mental of the physical world that you see the benefits and opportunities?
The thing is, signal is not electrons running down a wire. It’s an electromagnetic field around the conductor. The way any cable is constructed has an effect on that EM field, as do the materials and the dielectric. All of this affects the way the cable “sounds.” Then there’s the electromagnetic interaction of the cable itself with the two components it’s interconnecting, or with the amplifier and speaker. If we could have a different paradigm where we’re not transmitting EM fields down a wire, which is what signal is, then perhaps we could get away from this. But given the current zeitgeist, that’s just not happening that I can see.
 
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I believe that subject is not about cables, but about a technical feature of gear (marked as AES 48 in this case) which implemented right might reduce the influence of cables. But, as I have wrote in my previous post, personally cant comment on that as I have never tried Atmasphere gear. Reading forums, it seems that some users are saying that even if the differences among cables are present, they are not necessary for the better, when more expensive cables are used. Perhaps if some of them share their experience here, we might know more
I’ve not run that experiment, but I have absolutely never found two components that don’t sound different with different cables interconnecting them. Never ever.
 
Is It Possible for a Manufacturer to Create a Design that Minimizes the Effects of Cables?

Obviously, one way to do it is to reduce the number of boxes and provide proprietary connections as dCS has done with Varese. One of their sales pitches is : upgrade cost is not as high , as you need less cables.

But is there anything that a Manufacturer can do in terms of the design itself?

thanks
Yes.
This statement in context is false. Those of us who have LP or tape recordings from the 1950s will understand when they also understand what cables were like back then. Microphone cables back then had wire and insulation that would be considered crude by today's standards. So why do those recordings sound so good when the mic signal has traveled through 100 feet or more of cable?

The answer is there is a standard, or set of standards for balanced operation. The first is known today as AES48, which defines a balanced signal traveling through a shielded cable, without reference to ground. Another standard is how much power is put through a 600 Ohm load at the output of the cable. +1-dBm is often used as a line level (aux level at the input of a studio mixer) as well as -4dBm. Microphones are often only driving a 150Ohm load (my Neumann U67s do this using an output transformer after a small tube preamp built into the microphones.

There are several reasons for these standards. One is to prevent ground loops; if ground is not referenced then it does not matter if grounds are co-mingled. It the floating signal is applied to an input that is compliant with AES48, you get rejection of noise that is impinged on the signal as the cable makes its way from the source to the input. The use of dBm (IOW a VU meter reading when displaying a signal across a 600 Ohm load) is used to swamp noise that might have been impinged on the cable, and also to swamp any capacitive or inductive effects of the cable. It is this use that made trans- and inter-continental phone calls possible.

You can thus see that in the balanced line system, the equipment on either end of the cable is forcing the cable to do its job; quite literally the equipment is doing the heavy lifting of neutrality and there's nothing the cable can do about it.

In high end audio, the balanced line standards are rarely acknowledged. As a result there's balanced line equipment that references ground and can't drive low impedances. When this happens then you easily hear differences in balanced line cables, which isn't supposed to happen, but here we are.

We were the first in high end audio to embrace the balanced line system with all its standards and to do that we developed tube preamps that employed a direct-coupled output that did the job which we still make. At the time it never occured to us to not support the standards! It was with a bit of dismay that when other manufacturers began to jump on the bandwagon that the standards seemed to be routinely ignored which is still commonplace today.

That is why any debate about balanced line operation, whether its better than single ended or not, or whether the cable character can be heard or not, exist.
My pov was also confirmed by two other people - one of which was the dealer of the cables auditioned.
Clearly their gear supports the standards of balanced line operation.
Balanced cables exhibit the same degree of audible variance as do single ended or RCA cables.
This is true if the associated equipment does not support the standards of balanced operation.
Perhaps if some of them share their experience here, we might know more
If you don't have an LP made in the late 1950s, see about finding an early press of one of the more lauded recordings and see what you think- you can hear for yourself- its that easy. Many of these recordings were on 'Pearson's List' that was often published in TAS. Balanced lines, and the standards that go with them are literally what made hifi possible, along with the invention of the tape recorder during WW2.

My first exposure to the balanced line system was in 1973 when in high school I was asked to play bass in a local college (Macalester) orchestra. A concert (at Janet Wallace Auditorium) was being recorded and the person doing the recording let me hear the direct microphone feed to the recorder. The signal was traveling through 100 feet of cable yet the feed was spooky good! This was a few years prior to Robert Fulton (founder of FMI) offering the first 'high end' cables to the high end audio market.

I've been running a recording studio of some sort since I was in my early 20s and still do. So I have a lot of experience with this. Anyone in the studio, using pro gear and not semi pro gear will tell you pretty much what I've said here; the reason audio engineers often say cables make no difference when we in high end audio hear cable differnces all the time is not because the gear they use isn't revealing; its because studio gear supports the balanced line standards and most high end audio balanced stuff doesn't.
 
below is a pdf of an article published in the Sept 2001 Stereophile magazine, written by Herve Deletraz (i still have a hard copy of that issue). this was a year prior to Herve launching the darTZeel brand in 2002, with the Stereo 108 amp, and is the basis for the 50 ohm 'Zeel' BNC interface which is intended to minimize the effects of cables.

the main perspective of the article is that conventional cable interfaces (RCA and XLR) are not capable of proper impedance matching and so allow for signal reflections which reduce transparency. and that improvements in impedance matching matter. i'm sure i'm glossing over lots of details. but that is my take to the degree i can understand it.

the math and theory is beyond my capability of understanding. but it is one person's vision and was implemented and in my view had success. i still use a 7.5 meter Evolution Acoustics 'zeel' BNC set of interconnects between my dart 18NS preamp, and dart 468 mono blocks. btw; not all 50 ohm bnc cables sound the same. the quality of the plug construction and cable matters alot. cheap BNC's sound cheap. the EA's i use are the best one's i've heard over the years.


this link was provided by @marty and was found here.
 
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Yes.

This statement in context is false. Those of us who have LP or tape recordings from the 1950s will understand when they also understand what cables were like back then. Microphone cables back then had wire and insulation that would be considered crude by today's standards. So why do those recordings sound so good when the mic signal has traveled through 100 feet or more of cable?

The answer is there is a standard, or set of standards for balanced operation. The first is known today as AES48, which defines a balanced signal traveling through a shielded cable, without reference to ground. Another standard is how much power is put through a 600 Ohm load at the output of the cable. +1-dBm is often used as a line level (aux level at the input of a studio mixer) as well as -4dBm. Microphones are often only driving a 150Ohm load (my Neumann U67s do this using an output transformer after a small tube preamp built into the microphones.

There are several reasons for these standards. One is to prevent ground loops; if ground is not referenced then it does not matter if grounds are co-mingled. It the floating signal is applied to an input that is compliant with AES48, you get rejection of noise that is impinged on the signal as the cable makes its way from the source to the input. The use of dBm (IOW a VU meter reading when displaying a signal across a 600 Ohm load) is used to swamp noise that might have been impinged on the cable, and also to swamp any capacitive or inductive effects of the cable. It is this use that made trans- and inter-continental phone calls possible.

You can thus see that in the balanced line system, the equipment on either end of the cable is forcing the cable to do its job; quite literally the equipment is doing the heavy lifting of neutrality and there's nothing the cable can do about it.

In high end audio, the balanced line standards are rarely acknowledged. As a result there's balanced line equipment that references ground and can't drive low impedances. When this happens then you easily hear differences in balanced line cables, which isn't supposed to happen, but here we are.

We were the first in high end audio to embrace the balanced line system with all its standards and to do that we developed tube preamps that employed a direct-coupled output that did the job which we still make. At the time it never occured to us to not support the standards! It was with a bit of dismay that when other manufacturers began to jump on the bandwagon that the standards seemed to be routinely ignored which is still commonplace today.

That is why any debate about balanced line operation, whether its better than single ended or not, or whether the cable character can be heard or not, exist.

Clearly their gear supports the standards of balanced line operation.

This is true if the associated equipment does not support the standards of balanced operation.

If you don't have an LP made in the late 1950s, see about finding an early press of one of the more lauded recordings and see what you think- you can hear for yourself- its that easy. Many of these recordings were on 'Pearson's List' that was often published in TAS. Balanced lines, and the standards that go with them are literally what made hifi possible, along with the invention of the tape recorder during WW2.

My first exposure to the balanced line system was in 1973 when in high school I was asked to play bass in a local college (Macalester) orchestra. A concert (at Janet Wallace Auditorium) was being recorded and the person doing the recording let me hear the direct microphone feed to the recorder. The signal was traveling through 100 feet of cable yet the feed was spooky good! This was a few years prior to Robert Fulton (founder of FMI) offering the first 'high end' cables to the high end audio market.

I've been running a recording studio of some sort since I was in my early 20s and still do. So I have a lot of experience with this. Anyone in the studio, using pro gear and not semi pro gear will tell you pretty much what I've said here; the reason audio engineers often say cables make no difference when we in high end audio hear cable differnces all the time is not because the gear they use isn't revealing; its because studio gear supports the balanced line standards and most high end audio balanced stuff doesn't.

“And yet it moves.”

In the 17th century, Galileo faced intense pressure from the Catholic Church to change his support for the heliocentric model of the solar system. Despite being forced to deny his findings publicly, he stated “And yet it moves”, defiantly affirming the Earth’s motion around the Sun.

Doesn’t this mirror the debate over a great many flash points in audio where engineering principles might suggest all balanced cables or power cords should sound identical, yet empirical evidence shows clearly they do not?

Real-world observations can and do contradict established beliefs. When faced with skepticism about cables and a great many other things in audio, I think of Galileo and trust my ears– I hear the difference; and yet it moves.
 
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This story parallels the debate over balanced audio cables. While engineering principles might suggest that all balanced cables should sound identical, empirical evidence shows clear audible differences.

Real-world observations can and do reveal truths that theory alone often misses. When faced with skepticism about cable differences, I always think of Galileo’s defiant whisper and trust my ears – I hear the difference; and yet it moves.
Again: you'll hear those differences if the surrounding equipment does not support the balanced line standards.

I've been doing this longer than anyone else in high end audio at this point; our MP-1 was the first balanced line preamp offered to home audio. Its still in production.

My recommendation is get some studio equipment and see how audible the balanced cables really are. If your exposure it only to 'high end audio', most of the stuff we've seen over the last 35 years doesn't support any of the standards. Its much like trying to use a USB cable that doesn't conform to USB standards; it won't work. With balanced line it will still play, but you'll hear the artifact of the cable.
 
“And yet it moves.”

This famous phrase, attributed to Galileo, encapsulates a powerful lesson about empirical evidence trumping established dogma. In the 17th century, Galileo faced intense pressure from the Catholic Church to recant his support for the heliocentric model of the solar system. Despite being forced to deny his findings publicly, legend has it that he muttered, “Eppur si muove” (“And yet it moves”), affirming the Earth’s motion around the Sun.

This story parallels the debate over balanced audio cables. While engineering principles might suggest that all balanced cables should sound identical, empirical evidence shows clear audible differences.

Real-world observations can and do reveal truths that theory alone often misses. When faced with skepticism about cable differences, I always think of Galileo’s defiant whisper and trust my ears – I hear the difference; and yet it moves.
Have you seen Brecht's play Life of Galileo? It's quite brilliant, if a little hard-going in places.

Someone should write a play about Karl Popper and his Falsification Principle as it applies to audio. I'm surprised it hasn't been done already.
 
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below is a pdf of an article published in the Sept 2001 Stereophile magazine, written by Herve Deletraz (i still have a hard copy of that issue). this was a year prior to Herve launching the darTZeel brand in 2002, with the Stereo 108 amp, and is the basis for the 50 ohm 'Zeel' BNC interface which is intended to minimize the effects of cables.

the main perspective of the article is that conventional cable interfaces (RCA and XLR) are not capable of proper impedance matching and so allow for signal reflections which reduce transparency. and that improvements in impedance matching matter. i'm sure i'm glossing over lots of details. but that is my take to the degree i can understand it.

the math and theory is beyond my capability of understanding. but it is one person's vision and was implemented and in my view had success. i still use a 7.5 meter Evolution Acoustics 'zeel' BNC set of interconnects between my dart 18NS preamp, and dart 468 mono blocks. btw; not all 50 ohm bnc cables sound the same. the quality of the plug construction and cable matters alot. cheap BNC's sound cheap. the EA's i use are the best one's i've heard over the years.


this link was provided by @marty and was found here.

In fact, your report (and my experiences long ago) contradict all the math and theory and most Dartzeel claims - once we say that two 50 ohm BNC cables sound different it shows that the implementation did not have success. We should take marketing claims with a few grains of salt - no problem with them, the problem is when believe them.
 
once we say that two 50 ohm BNC cables sound different it shows that the implementation did not have success.
execution always matters. i respectfully disagree that perceived differences between BNC cables proves that the concept is wrong. also does not prove it's right. it proves nothing. it was only my personal experience.
We should take marketing claims with a few grains of salt - no problem with them, the problem is when believe them.
cannot quibble with this. we can start to form opinions over time based on our experiences. but connecting the technical and experience is more problematic.
 
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Is It Possible for a Manufacturer to Create a Design that Minimizes the Effects of Cables?

Obviously, one way to do it is to reduce the number of boxes and provide proprietary connections as dCS has done with Varese. One of their sales pitches is : upgrade cost is not as high , as you need less cables.

But is there anything that a Manufacturer can do in terms of the design itself?

thanks
All of Wadax cables except for interconnects - one pair , and power cords (3) in the big system are theirs.
Studio Player just PC and Interconnects only
Integrated amps- can be very good but people generally prefer seperates
speakers with everything built in, great in theory but they do not connect well with purchasers
I am afraid that if they provided balanced interconnects and power cords that no one would want them anyway LOL
All in one systems and copmponents are wonderful in the fantasy that audio consumers will accept that reality but we all know they won't and don't.
Audio commandments may not be written on stone tablets but they might as well be for this crowd lol
If you can change it it can be better!
 
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