Koetsu

[J.R. Boisclair]

Here's a somewhat related but not often discussed question: it's proven that VTA adjustments will change cartridge alignment/offset. Is it important to re-check alignment after even small VTA adjustments?
Also related to this is that arms with the ability to alter VTA 'on the fly' typically have increased play which will again affect alignment. So you are not really changing only VTA!

That is a good question and one I touch on in my seminar on the seven alignment targets of analog optimization. I cannot recommend anybody to use VTA “on the fly“ because as you correctly state, it is never just the SRA or the VTA that is changing. (By the way, both of those are important for different reasons, and have their own target range.) The most notable parameter to change when you change the height of the tone arm at the pivot point is VTF. Not many tonearms have its center of gravity coincident with the horizontal pivot. Other arms will also change azimuth as you change the height of the arm. Certainly, the vector forces at play in the arm will change the furtherthe arm gets away from perfectly level. Changing the overhang isn’t an issue in this case IMO. Overhang is only the linear dimension at which the offset angle should be applied. The tiny changes in overhang from a change to the tonearm height of, say, 2 mm are tiny indeed and the principle impact is its affect on the tangency of the cantilever at the null points. To put this in perspective, a 0.25 mm change to overhang will change the cantilever angle at the outer null by 0.09° in at the inner null by 0.17°. Not noticeable for its visual error and hardly noticeable for its added distortion characteristics. if you haven’t watched my seminar on the Absolute Sound’s YouTube channel you might consider doing so. You can see the link to it from my video page on the WallyTools website here: https://www.wallyanalog.com/videos

There’s a good animation in the seminar so you can see what the mechanical cost is of having a VTA that is too high. Almost everybody is too high! Notice I am not talking about SRA! That’s got its own target range. The challenge is balancing the two since they obviously cannot be set independently. SRA does weight more heavily in an application ratio than VTA by my hypothesis but I can’t yet prove that. I know how to prove it but haven’t done the work yet. Zenith is still soaking up my attention.

my advice is to get your SRA between 90.5 and 92.5 and VTA under 20 degrees. These are DYNAMIC figures. Many of you won’t be able to do that because cartridge manufacturers often use ridiculously high VTA in response to unreasonable demands to improve tracking ability which in itself is a misunderstanding of what causes mistracking – almost always, the tonearm, not the cartridge, causes poor tracking but cartridge manufacturers can increase the vector force of the stylus cantilever assembly downward by lifting the VTA. The mechanical cost can be seen in my seminar.

 

[defride]

I cannot recommend anybody to use VTA “on the fly“ because as you correctly state, it is never just the SRA or the VTA that is changing. (By the way, both of those are important for different reasons, and have their own target range.) The most notable parameter to change when you change the height of the tone arm at the pivot point is VTF

It was my understanding that VTA on the fly is a solution to differing record thickness?

Moving from thin to heavy weight vinyl makes a small change to VTA and presumably the attendant issues you raise, so doesn't making a change in VTA to take account of this make sense?

Can't say it's something I notice in practice and I've not experimented, just curious

 

[Zeotrope]

It was my understanding that VTA on the fly is a solution to differing record thickness?

Moving from thin to heavy weight vinyl makes a small change to VTA and presumably the attendant issues you raise, so doesn't making a change in VTA to take account of this make sense?

Can't say it's something I notice in practice and I've not experimented, just curious

Yes, and also to different cutting lathe angles. You can’t just change VTA, you also alter other parameters by changing tonearm height. So it’s a question of trade-offs and what’s more important for sound quality, and your time.

 

[defride]

Yes, and also to different cutting lathe angles. You can’t just change VTA, you also alter other parameters by changing tonearm height. So it’s a question of trade-offs and what’s more important for sound quality, and your time.

Changing the record changes the VTA. Adjusting the VTA relative to the playing surface would appear to restore the status quo? I guess what I'm getting at is are there significant changes to other tonearm parameters if VTA is adjusted so that it remains the same for different record thicknesses?

 

[jadis]

Changing the record changes the VTA. Adjusting the VTA relative to the playing surface would appear to restore the status quo? I guess what I'm getting at is are there significant changes to other tonearm parameters if VTA is adjusted so that it remains the same for different record thicknesses?

I've done that for decades as my ET2 arm had VTA adj on the fly. I simply move the VTA lever with scale up or down depending of the thickness of the record. I played it by ear, worked fine for me.

 

[J.R. Boisclair]

It was my understanding that VTA on the fly is a solution to differing record thickness?

Moving from thin to heavy weight vinyl makes a small change to VTA and presumably the attendant issues you raise, so doesn't making a change in VTA to take account of this make sense?

Can't say it's something I notice in practice and I've not experimented, just curious

You are correct that adjusting the height of the arm to accommodate various thicknesses of the records will ensure consistent VTA and SRA. However, we can find no evidence given our research so far that, say, a 1 mm change in record thickness or tonearm height (which is about a quarter of a degree on a 9 inch arm) will have an audible impact since the distortion characteristics from that change to SRA & VTA are so VERY small. However, this does not mean that you will not hear a difference from 1 mm of change in tonearm height or record thickness - just be VERY cautious about attributing that subjective experience to a change in SRA or VTA. I know I wouldn’t.

If the center of gravity of your tonearm is significantly higher than or lower than your horizontal pivot axis then VTF will certainly change with a change in significant record thickness or tonearm height. Of course, changing VTF changes your SRA and VTA but by way of example, if the COG is above the horizontal pivot axis then as record thickness reduces or tonearm height increases, VTF can increase significantly, leaving nearly net zero change in SRA/VTA, as owners of the Kuzma four-point tonearms might have noticed. Unipivot tonearm users will experience the exact opposite relationship

Further, some tonearms do not have offset horizontal bearings (a.k.a., offset yolks) and a change in tonearm height (or record thickness) even makes a small change to azimuth which happens to the be the most audibly sensitive parameter to angular changes.

What is the least understood physical characteristic in this scenario (for me, anyway!) is how vector forces in the arm change when it is no longer level. I guess more accurately I should say that we can calculate those vector forces without a problem, but we don’t fully understand their impact on the behavior of the cartridge/tonearm Union.

if we eliminate lacquers, shellacs and Dynaflex records from our collection than the typical difference in thickness between our thinnest and thickest record is about 1.2 mm. This is not something I will bother changing the tonearm for, but that is just my opinion about it.

I hope that is helpful

 

[Johan K]

You are correct that adjusting the height of the arm to accommodate various thicknesses of the records will ensure consistent VTA and SRA. However, we can find no evidence given our research so far that, say, a 1 mm change in record thickness or tonearm height (which is about a quarter of a degree on a 9 inch arm) will have an audible impact since the distortion characteristics from that change to SRA & VTA are so VERY small. However, this does not mean that you will not hear a difference from 1 mm of change in tonearm height or record thickness - just be VERY cautious about attributing that subjective experience to a change in SRA or VTA. I know I wouldn’t.

If the center of gravity of your tonearm is significantly higher than or lower than your horizontal pivot axis then VTF will certainly change with a change in significant record thickness or tonearm height. Of course, changing VTF changes your SRA and VTA but by way of example, if the COG is above the horizontal pivot axis then as record thickness reduces or tonearm height increases, VTF can increase significantly, leaving nearly net zero change in SRA/VTA, as owners of the Kuzma four-point tonearms might have noticed. Unipivot tonearm users will experience the exact opposite relationship

Further, some tonearms do not have offset horizontal bearings (a.k.a., offset yolks) and a change in tonearm height (or record thickness) even makes a small change to azimuth which happens to the be the most audibly sensitive parameter to angular changes.

What is the least understood physical characteristic in this scenario (for me, anyway!) is how vector forces in the arm change when it is no longer level. I guess more accurately I should say that we can calculate those vector forces without a problem, but we don’t fully understand their impact on the behavior of the cartridge/tonearm Union.

if we eliminate lacquers, shellacs and Dynaflex records from our collection than the typical difference in thickness between our thinnest and thickest record is about 1.2 mm. This is not something I will bother changing the tonearm for, but that is just my opinion about it.

I hope that is helpful

You are the true Master of vinyl, J.R. !!
So helpful and so very good explained - as always. Thank you! Hope your Axpona days are going well.

All the best

/ Johan

 

[mtemur]

It was my understanding that VTA on the fly is a solution to differing record thickness?

IMHO;
On the fly VTA is a solution for a problem never existed. There is no need to change VTA according to record thickness. Tonearms with VTA tower also enable you to adjust VTA/SRA easily but impairing rigidity in return. That’s why Kuzma Safir 9 doesn’t have a VTA tower like 4P.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

IMHO;
On the fly VTA is a solution for a problem never existed. There is no need to change VTA according to record thickness. Tonearms with VTA tower also enable you to adjust VTA/SRA easily but impairing rigidity in return. That’s why Kuzma Safir 9 doesn’t have a VTA tower like 4P.

Solidity of the chain and settling dwarfs VTA per pressing.

 

[DasguteOhr]

IMHO;
On the fly VTA is a solution for a problem never existed. There is no need to change VTA according to record thickness. Tonearms with VTA tower also enable you to adjust VTA/SRA easily but impairing rigidity in return. That’s why Kuzma Safir 9 doesn’t have a VTA tower like 4P.

You need the right tonearm,then it also works with the rigidity

 

[mtemur]

You need the right tonearm,then it also works with the rigidity
View attachment 107920

I think you misunderstood my comment. I said VTA tower impairs rigidity, not every VTA adjustment. I don't know whether TW Acoustics tonearm is right or not in terms of rigidity but it doesn't have a VTA tower. If you found TW Acoustics tonearm as the right tonearm, I'm happy for you.

IMHO a tonearm mounted on a protruding beam which is connected to a VTA tower is not the most rigid one. It's about additional VTA tower not VTA adjustment ability. Almost all tonearms offer VTA adjustment but only a few have VTA tower.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I think you misunderstood my comment. I said VTA tower not every VTA adjustment. I don't know whether or not TW Acoustics tonearm is right in terms of rigidity but it doesn't have a VTA tower. IMHO a tonearm mounted on a protruding beam which is connected to a VTA tower is not the most rigid one. It's about additional VTA tower not VTA adjustment ability. Almost all tonearms offer VTA adjustment but only a few have VTA tower.

Ok..missunderstood,I know exactly what you mean a vta tower is not a good solution. the vta riser from tw works perfectly stable +-5mm at the base

vta riser tw tonearm

youtube.com

P.S Sorry tv tone backround

 

[tima]

Tonearms with VTA tower also enable you to adjust VTA/SRA easily but impairing rigidity in return. That’s why Kuzma Safir 9 doesn’t have a VTA tower like 4P.

Interesting comment. It's been a while since I studied the Safir 9 --. iirc its vta adjustment is similar to that on an SME V.

Tonearm adjustment height comes from the arm pillar moving up/down on a threaded post. It is not clear to me that approach is much more rigid than a 4P 11" with its vta tower -- a designed adopted from the Triplanar. Kuzma has excellent tolerances, but the pillar to which the arm attaches still moves. On the 4P 11", the vta tower moves up and down but the pillar that holds it (and the arm)
does not move Maybe the Safir is a small amount more rigid? How can we tell? I suspect sonic differences attributed to vta mechanism rigidity - if any - are near impossible to determine.

 

[Zeotrope]

I think you misunderstood my comment. I said VTA tower impairs rigidity, not every VTA adjustment. I don't know whether TW Acoustics tonearm is right or not in terms of rigidity but it doesn't have a VTA tower. If you found TW Acoustics tonearm as the right tonearm, I'm happy for you.

IMHO a tonearm mounted on a protruding beam which is connected to a VTA tower is not the most rigid one. It's about additional VTA tower not VTA adjustment ability. Almost all tonearms offer VTA adjustment but only a few have VTA tower.

I think it also depends on whether it's a unipivot or not. A unipivot is not mounted on a rigid base, by definition. So it doesn't really matter if the VTA is not super rigid if the tonearm is balancing on one point (and that point is typically filled with some type of grease anyway). Do you agree?

 

[bazelio]

IMHO;
On the fly VTA is a solution for a problem never existed. There is no need to change VTA according to record thickness. Tonearms with VTA tower also enable you to adjust VTA/SRA easily but impairing rigidity in return. That’s why Kuzma Safir 9 doesn’t have a VTA tower like 4P.

I'm curious as to whether this is supposition or information from Franc? Intuitively, I wouldn't think the set-screw-like VTA method of the Safir provides additional rigidity over the worm drive of the 4 Point. When the 4 Point VTA is clamped down, especially.

 

[mtemur]

I'm curious as to whether this is supposition or information from Franc? Intuitively, I wouldn't think the set-screw-like VTA method of the Safir provides additional rigidity over the worm drive of the 4 Point. When the 4 Point VTA is clamped down, especially.

This is my opinion and I didn't check with Franc. That's why I put IMHO at the beginning of my post. It's easy to guess the response of the designer/owner of the company but it will not change the fact. I'm sure the response will be like 4P VTA tower model is as rigid as non VTA tower tonearm for example safir9". The reality is the opposite cause it's basic physics. A tonearm mounted on a protruding beam which is connected to a VTA tower can not be as rigid as same tonearm mounted directly to armboard.

 

[bazelio]

This is my opinion and I didn't check with Franc. That's why I put IMHO at the beginning of my post. It's easy to guess the response of the designer/owner of the company but it will not change the fact. I'm sure the response will be like 4P VTA tower model is as rigid as non VTA tower tonearm for example safir9". The reality is the opposite cause it's basic physics. A tonearm mounted on a protruding beam which is connected to a VTA tower can not be as rigid as same tonearm mounted directly to armboard.

Yes, that is true. I glanced over at my 4P, and had forgotten about the protuding beam, but there it is. The safir is indeed all about rigidity, hence the limitation of 9" arm length as well.

 

[Zeotrope]

I'm curious as to whether this is supposition or information from Franc? Intuitively, I wouldn't think the set-screw-like VTA method of the Safir provides additional rigidity over the worm drive of the 4 Point. When the 4 Point VTA is clamped down, especially.

Michael Fremer said it does, by specifically stating that the Safir has “zero play”. This was after discussing the 4Point in the same video (I quoted it above).

 

[mtemur]

I think it also depends on whether it's a unipivot or not. A unipivot is not mounted on a rigid base, by definition. So it doesn't really matter if the VTA is not super rigid if the tonearm is balancing on one point (and that point is typically filled with some type of grease anyway). Do you agree?

IMHO non of the unipivots are as rigid as gimbal or race bearing counterparts (or 4Point). I believe bearing rigidity is more important.

Although VTA tower weakens rigidity in general a Kuzma 4P is still more rigid than a Graham unipivot, J.Sikora kevlar unipivot or Durand unipivot. I like the sound and performance of 11" Kuzma 4P and AS Axiom. 4P and Axiom both have VTA towers. I wish they wouldn't but anyway they sound great. My point is; if they wouldn't have VTA tower they could be more rigid and possibly sound better. I think I'm not a unipivot guy.

The way the tonearm is fixed after adjusting VTA also plays an important role in terms of rigidity. Some of them use clamp like SME and SAT some use only one screw like Thales. Clamping is better. Those are my opinions and I have reasons to reach those conclusions but I don't claim that they're absolute facts. I might be wrong. YMMV.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Here's a somewhat related but not often discussed question: it's proven that VTA adjustments will change cartridge alignment/offset. Is it important to re-check alignment after even small VTA adjustments?
Also related to this is that arms with the ability to alter VTA 'on the fly' typically have increased play which will again affect alignment. So you are not really changing only VTA!

you change the tracking force with every vta adjustment, since the cartridge only has the greatest signal amplitude at one point of the tracking force, the sound deteriorates.