Koetsu

[mulveling]

Thanks for the detailed response mulveling. Whilst I would never pretend to know a lot about the relative merits of cartridges I always understood the Cadenza black to be fairly neutral? Perhaps flat sounding compared to other carts, but I've had 2 and been satisfied with the sound, and accepting it as a yardstick that is where I'm hoping to explore a different sound, and perhaps favouring a second tonearm - thanks for the recommendations btw.

As a slightly aside, I've seen a few second hand vintage Koetsu stone carts advertised for sale, some up to 10-20 years old. Assuming that they are low hours, should they perform well having been stored appropriately? I'm assuming a life of around 1000 hours before overhaul

​

It (based on Jubilee MC I had) is indeed quite neutral, but also somewhat flat and dry to my ear. I prefer my vinyl playback with more passion and personality. Only way to learn which you prefer, is experience! To be fair, I have not heard the Cadenza Black itself -- it may well be improved over its predecessor Jubilee. Though I find the Kontra "c" and Cadenza Bronze kept a very similar character.

Yes, a properly stored 20 year old Koetsu is no problem. In fact I have a Rosewood Signature Platinum (RSP) that is ~23 years old now, ~ 650 hours on its original stylus, and still sounds spectacular. I also had an even older 1990s Onyx non-Platinum that sounded glorious but had way too much stylus wear (from normal use). Even then it didn't indicate any deficiencies in playback, until you got to the inner grooves. I had to get it rebuilt due to that. I think you can safely get more than 1000 hours (at least 1500, maybe up to 2000) if you're careful with stylus and record cleanliness.

 

[Johan K]

Who has heard the Koetsu platinum stones against an ATight Opus?

thoughts?

I have ?!!

I shift between them every time I play vinyl records.

 

[Johan K]

A little advice please. My current vinyl setup is a Bergmann Modi with Odin tonearm and Ortofon Cadenza Black through Gryphon Legato Legacy and Pandora Pre. I quite fancy experimenting with cartridges and am drawn to Koetsu but have never heard one. Specifically, I am looking at a stone platinum cart (Jade or Blue Lace, based purely on the way they look, I know, poor discriminator). My first question is how different to the Ortofon is the sound likely to be based on my system setup?

Secondly, and somewhere in the future, I'm considering a second tonearm (radial pivot) and either another legato phono or something totally different. If a Koetsu isn't ideal with my current setup, what might suit?

A Koetsu is much more romantic sounding compared to an Ortofon, making female voices like floting honey in the room. The big difference is everything… complete different sound… However: you can’t go wrong with the sound from a Koetsu.

/ Jk

 

[Johan K]

A little advice please. My current vinyl setup is a Bergmann Modi with Odin tonearm and Ortofon Cadenza Black through Gryphon Legato Legacy and Pandora Pre. I quite fancy experimenting with cartridges and am drawn to Koetsu but have never heard one. Specifically, I am looking at a stone platinum cart (Jade or Blue Lace, based purely on the way they look, I know, poor discriminator). My first question is how different to the Ortofon is the sound likely to be based on my system setup?

Secondly, and somewhere in the future, I'm considering a second tonearm (radial pivot) and either another legato phono or something totally different. If a Koetsu isn't ideal with my current setup, what might suit?

Corinthian,

I need to comment this post cus it is somewhat interesting in a few points?.

”Specifically, I am looking at a stone platinum cart (Jade or Blue Lace, based purely on the way they look, I know, poor discriminator)”

This is NOT a poor discriminator at all..!!! The eyes and ears are definitely psychologicly connected and should not be overseen. I can actually reveal that me too were taken by the sheer looks of the Koetsu’s first time I layed my eyes on them… It then took many years before I had the chance to actually buy one.

My point is: A Koetsu in the headshell, looking massive, looking polished and glittering will make you feel, just by looking at it that ”-this cart will blow my mind” before you have even played a note.. THAN… as the Koetsu’s perform as they do…. It will be double happiness!!

The looks on the equipment to one and other is a BIG factor how one experience the sound, and I usually say: ”-if it looks good to my eys, it usually sounds equally as good”.

/ Jk

 

[Johan K]

Just a note?:

I belive I read somewere in the last posts (from someone) which I now can’t find.
That cartridges can’t be tested at home on ones own system… I belive this is not the case, because a true serious dealer should be able to lend out a demoex of any brand he is dealing. Maybe not any top model, but usually a cart from one brand has the caracteristics of that brand regardless of the instep model or the top model. The difference is normally the refinement gets better up in the stairs.

Always ask your dealer of a demo ex and try it for your self at home… should not be a problem.

/ Jk

 

[DasguteOhr]

It (based on Jubilee MC I had) is indeed quite neutral, but also somewhat flat and dry to my ear. I prefer my vinyl playback with more passion and personality. Only way to learn which you prefer, is experience! To be fair, I have not heard the Cadenza Black itself -- it may well be improved over its predecessor Jubilee. Though I find the Kontra "c" and Cadenza Bronze kept a very similar character.

Yes, a properly stored 20 year old Koetsu is no problem. In fact I have a Rosewood Signature Platinum (RSP) that is ~23 years old now, ~ 650 hours on its original stylus, and still sounds spectacular. I also had an even older 1990s Onyx non-Platinum that sounded glorious but had way too much stylus wear (from normal use). Even then it didn't indicate any deficiencies in playback, until you got to the inner grooves. I had to get it rebuilt due to that. I think you can safely get more than 1000 hours (at least 1500, maybe up to 2000) if you're careful with stylus and record cleanliness.

E.g. the akzent series form ortofon developed for the german market sounds different i would say "more meat on the bones". my favorites are venice, vienna, vero II. maybe worth a look at the used market. a retip with shibata and boron cantilever reinforces the drug( musicality)
Valencia
Venice*
Vero
Vero II*
Vienna*
Vigor
virgo
Virtue
Virtus II
Vitesse

Sorry for offtopic

 

[mulveling]

Corinthian,

I need to comment this post cus it is somewhat interesting in a few points?.

”Specifically, I am looking at a stone platinum cart (Jade or Blue Lace, based purely on the way they look, I know, poor discriminator)”

This is NOT a poor discriminator at all..!!! The eyes and ears are definitely psychologicly connected and should not be overseen. I can actually reveal that me too were taken by the sheer looks of the Koetsu’s first time I layed my eyes on them… It then took many years before I had the chance to actually buy one.

My point is: A Koetsu in the headshell, looking massive, looking polished and glittering will make you feel, just by looking at it that ”-this cart will blow my mind” before you have even played a note.. THAN… as the Koetsu’s perform as they do…. It will be double happiness!!

The looks on the equipment to one and other is a BIG factor how one experience the sound, and I usually say: ”-if it looks good to my eys, it usually sounds equally as good”.

/ Jk

I like this point! I've had to realize I'm probably more biased by aesthetic that I'd previously admit. Koetsu, Shelter, Benz and some (not all!) Ortofon look like little works of art to me in their own right. Some other brands too (Lyra). I'm lukewarm on the looks of others like: Kiseki, Van den Hul, Hana, Dynavector, Audio Technica, Grados. But SoundSmith would never even make it onto an arm here based on looks alone!

Koetsu double-taps into a childhood fascination I had for minerals & rocks. I'll literally never tire of looking at the infinite different colors and grain patterns of Onyx, Jade, Tiger Eye, Rhodenite, etc. Every Koetsu I see for the first time is a beautiful surprise!

 

[mulveling]

E.g. the akzent series form ortofon developed for the german market sounds different i would say "more meat on the bones". my favorites are venice, vienna, vero II. maybe worth a look at the used market. a retip with shibata and boron cantilever reinforces the drug( musicality)
Valencia
Venice*
Vero
Vero II*
Vienna*
Vigor
virgo
Virtue
Virtus II
Vitesse

Sorry for offtopic

No, that's interesting to me - thanks! I know Ortofon has an ability to make a huge range of sounds. Sadly their American line doesn't really go in the direction I like, except for Cadenza Bronze (and the Red, to a lesser extent).

 

[Johan K]

I like this point! I've had to realize I'm probably more biased by aesthetic that I'd previously admit. Koetsu, Shelter, Benz and some (not all!) Ortofon look like little works of art to me in their own right. Some other brands too (Lyra). I'm lukewarm on the looks of others like: Kiseki, Van den Hul, Hana, Dynavector, Audio Technica, Grados. But SoundSmith would never even make it onto an arm here based on looks alone!

Koetsu double-taps into a childhood fascination I had for minerals & rocks. I'll literally never tire of looking at the infinite different colors and grain patterns of Onyx, Jade, Tiger Eye, Rhodenite, etc. Every Koetsu I see for the first time is a beautiful surprise!

Thank you! I totally agree with you there.

/ Jk

 

[Corinthian]

Well that's all very reassuring! Glad that it's not just me who is concerned with the aesthetics of HiFi!

I'm very intrigued by the description of floating honey, thanks Johan. I'll have to see if I can get a demo at home on my system.

 

[Johan K]

Well that's all very reassuring! Glad that it's not just me who is concerned with the aesthetics of HiFi!

I'm very intrigued by the description of floating honey, thanks Johan. I'll have to see if I can get a demo at home on my system.

My pleasure Corinthian, and no problem at all. I’ve been jumping between Koetsu Blue Lace, AirTight Opus1 and Ortofon MC Diamond all day today and it is so much fun.
Why three different cart you may wonder? Well… all records have their specific sound and recordings… and if you want to get the most out of every record in your collection, it is very nice to optimize everything with a cart that suits the recording the best, as the carts also have their own sonic caracteristics.

I’ll bet you soon have a Koetsu demo ex at your place - I will hold my thumbs for you !

All the best

/ Jk

 

[joey_v]

Johan
Can you explain the diff between koetsu blue lace and opus?
Thx

 

[Corinthian]

My pleasure Corinthian, and no problem at all. I’ve been jumping between Koetsu Blue Lace, AirTight Opus1 and Ortofon MC Diamond all day today and it is so much fun.
Why three different cart you may wonder? Well… all records have their specific sound and recordings… and if you want to get the most out of every record in your collection, it is very nice to optimize everything with a cart that suits the recording the best, as the carts also have their own sonic caracteristics.

I’ll bet you soon have a Koetsu demo ex at your place - I will hold my thumbs for you !

All the best

/ Jk
View attachment 112589

What a setup! That looks fantastic! In time I'd like to add an additional tonearm to my Bergmann so that I can have two totally different arm/cartridge configurations.

Out of interest, what arm and phono stage are you using with the Koetsu? Presumably you recommend the combination you have?

 

[Johan K]

Johan
Can you explain the diff between koetsu blue lace and opus?
Thx

Hi joey,

Please read this post were I explain some diffrences.. Hope that helps. Maybe need to scroll down just a bit?.

/ Jk

New arrival....Miyabi Fuuga

anyone compared the Fuuga with DaVa Reference? as soon as Dava arrives!

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[Johan K]

What a setup! That looks fantastic! In time I'd like to add an additional tonearm to my Bergmann so that I can have two totally different arm/cartridge configurations.

Out of interest, what arm and phono stage are you using with the Koetsu? Presumably you recommend the combination you have?

Thank you for your kind words. Indeed you should have two arms if you can manage it. It is very convenient, and if one cart sounds a bit off on one type of music, you just use the other one and you are for 99,9% good to go, right?.
I am using the Kuzma 4point 11” arm to my Koetsu Blue Lace, which works very well at my place. The 4point is a quite heavy arm which is very good for the Koetsu’s low compliance, make it to a very stable platform for the Koetsu’s. I use the Dan D’Agostino Momentum phonostage, which is a solid state phonostage, that takes 2 MC and 2 MM cartridges. In my system it works very well together with my other equipment. I did actually tried a bunch of phonostages (here at my place - new ones - direct from dealer) before I decided that the Momentum was the perfect match.

Maybe some other phonostage will be better with your own gear, to match YOUR system. You have to decide for your self. Just reach out to a dealer and ask for a testdrive for a couple of weeks. If you and the dealer are serious - I’m sure you will work something out. Good luck!

/ Jk

 

[mulveling]

Every cart model will have its own personality. At this level you just have to try yourself, in your system, to determine whether the difference is meaningful to you, and how much you like it. The Koetsu stones are all 95% the same personality, with variations presumably due to the stone and/or cantilever choice. But going from one brand to another will certainly present more changes.

I've long given up on any sort of "absolute sound" pursuit. I love many different cartridges, and I love that they're each unique and exciting in their own way! This probably also largely explains my disdain for digital. I always have a wide selection of phono stages, tubes, tonearms, and SUTs to ensure I give every cart a good chance to find its optimal setup. If it doesn't sound right on first go, I keep cycling through ancillaries to see where it can go. Tech/theory can guide what "should" work together fine, but it can't predict passion versus indifference.

I quite often prefer models lower in a line, to their more expensive sibling. Examples: I prefer Shelter Accord and 7000 over top Harmony; I prefer Benz Wood / Ebony over LPS; I prefer Cadenza Bronze over higher Ortofons. I feel like I can point out what the technical reasons are for each of those preferences, but at the end of the day that's not what matters! However the Blue Lace is one case where it's at the top of its line AND I really like it the best (not that the other lovely Koetsus are far off; I just happen to like Blue Lace best).

 

[Johan K]

Every cart model will have its own personality. At this level you just have to try yourself, in your system, to determine whether the difference is meaningful to you, and how much you like it. The Koetsu stones are all 95% the same personality, with variations presumably due to the stone and/or cantilever choice. But going from one brand to another will certainly present more changes.

I've long given up on any sort of "absolute sound" pursuit. I love many different cartridges, and I love that they're each unique and exciting in their own way! This probably also largely explains my disdain for digital. I always have a wide selection of phono stages, tubes, tonearms, and SUTs to ensure I give every cart a good chance to find its optimal setup. I quite often prefer models lower in a line, to their more expensive sibling. Examples: I prefer Shelter Accord and 7000 over top Harmony; I prefer Benz Wood / Ebony over LPS; I prefer Cadenza Bronze over higher Ortofons. I feel like I can point out what the technical reasons are for each of those preferences, but at the end of the day that's not what matters! However the Blue Lace is one case where it's at the top of its line AND I really like it the best (not that the other lovely Koetsus are far off; I just happen to like Blue Lace best).

Well mulveling, you stole my words, haha!! Great writing - could not have said it better myself !!!

/ Jk

 

[mulveling]

Well mulveling, you stole my words, haha!! Great writing - could not have said it better myself !!!

/ Jk

Haha I think we were typing the same sentiment at same time! Took me longer to post.

 

[RickS]

It (based on Jubilee MC I had) is indeed quite neutral, but also somewhat flat and dry to my ear. I prefer my vinyl playback with more passion and personality. Only way to learn which you prefer, is experience! To be fair, I have not heard the Cadenza Black itself -- it may well be improved over its predecessor Jubilee. Though I find the Kontra "c" and Cadenza Bronze kept a very similar character.

Yes, a properly stored 20 year old Koetsu is no problem. In fact I have a Rosewood Signature Platinum (RSP) that is ~23 years old now, ~ 650 hours on its original stylus, and still sounds spectacular. I also had an even older 1990s Onyx non-Platinum that sounded glorious but had way too much stylus wear (from normal use). Even then it didn't indicate any deficiencies in playback, until you got to the inner grooves. I had to get it rebuilt due to that. I think you can safely get more than 1000 hours (at least 1500, maybe up to 2000) if you're careful with stylus and record cleanliness.

My old Koetsu Black’s stylus has started wearing out. It’s stylus still has the right shape but the sound is not as liquid smooth anymore, as of yesterday. It’s not gotten terrible sounding, rather it sounds on the edge of mistracking on louder material. I’ve tried different VTA/SRA settings, VTF, azimuth, checked the overhang. It’s just tired. Needs a well deserved rest and possible restoration.
I got it second had 3yrs ago and have put a lot of miles on it since. I’m going to retire it and box it up and see about trading it in or having it rebuilt by the end of summer. I plan on using my other table with the DL103
full time till then.

 

[mtemur]

It’s stylus still has the right shape but the sound is not as liquid smooth anymore, as of yesterday. It’s not gotten terrible sounding, rather it sounds on the edge of mistracking on louder material. I’ve tried different VTA/SRA settings, VTF, azimuth, checked the overhang.

Besides a worn out stylus a ruined zenith alignment due to bent cantilever or deteriorated suspension can also cause mistracking. Slightly tilting cartridge on the headshell towards the spindle or increasing anti-skating may help. IMHO It worths checking.