If I had a money to buy any TT I like I would probably get the vyger, it has amazing ability to do inflections and micro nuances which give the sound agilityKed,
It has to be the opposite around? The Vyger Atlantis and the Vyger arm finally sounds more agile because of the Koetsu..
Are you sure, you didn’t mix things up, haha?
Jk
Koetsu
- Thread starter jadis
- Start date
Yeah I know you like the Vyger… I was just messing with you a bit, haha. It’s a very beautiful TT, and I bet most cartridges will perform at their best on such a stable platform.
This what my Blue Tigereye Diamond looks like.
Different shades can happen as with the Coralstone, Blue Lace, which can come is very light blue and on bright light can look like an Onyx. Leopards have different shades too from 2 samples that I have seen. Jasper has greenish and pinkish shades. The colors of Koetsu, I call it.
An older 2005 Blue Lace Diamond
And my present Blue Lace that arrived a few months ago.
And my present Blue Lace that arrived a few months ago.
2005 Coralstone Diamond , and Coralstone Boron.
I have not read through this 57 page thread so my simple questions may be answered.
Is it the case for stone-bodied Koetsu cartridges that the motor assemblies are largely the same and the bodies are different? Among the stone-bodied models do the cantilevers and/or stylus differ?
Is it the case for stone-bodied Koetsu cartridges that the motor assemblies are largely the same and the bodies are different? Among the stone-bodied models do the cantilevers and/or stylus differ?
Hi tima,
For stone bodies, yes, the motor assemblies are the same - they use platinum magnets. As for their cantilever/stylus, they can either be had in boron, or diamond.
There is only one wood model that uses platinum magnets and that is the Rosewood Platinum. Buyers can have it custom ordered with a diamond cantilever if they so wish too.
The diamond cantilever option is listed in some dealers' store as $4,000. Most of their stocks are boron.
A few years ago there was some speculation (on audiogon) that some different Platinum magnet arrangement was selected specifically for the Coralstone and Blue Lace models. I believe these were dubbed "Type II" platinum magnets, to distinguish from those in the other stones. However, I don't feel the argument was particularly compelling, nor do I remember seeing concrete proof of this.
Having quite some platinums in hand (Onyx, Jade, Coral, Blue Lace, RSP) - I'm not really sure. Anything is possible, but I lean towards the theory that "all platinum magnets are the same". It's quite possible motors are carefully selected and earmarked for each stone type, post build (e.g. maybe best of the best go to Blue Lace). It's also possible they carefully fine-tune motors (damper, suspension, mounting?) differently for each designated stone. And then the stone types themselves likely have some minor (subtle) contributions to the sound. But I'd definitely bet that they're the same core magnets and motors.
As far as output levels and weights of Koetsu stones, these too seem pretty consistent to me. The output is definitely affected by magnet type (samarium cobalt is much stronger), and all the Platinum models seem roughly consistent. Weight too, is pretty consistent, except for an oddball Onyx Platinum P022 I have that's 2-3g heavier than anything else. I also used to feel the RSP was slightly inferior to the "typical" stone Platinums, but don't feel that way anymore. And I've always liked Blue Lace the best of the lot, but they're all fantastic!
Having quite some platinums in hand (Onyx, Jade, Coral, Blue Lace, RSP) - I'm not really sure. Anything is possible, but I lean towards the theory that "all platinum magnets are the same". It's quite possible motors are carefully selected and earmarked for each stone type, post build (e.g. maybe best of the best go to Blue Lace). It's also possible they carefully fine-tune motors (damper, suspension, mounting?) differently for each designated stone. And then the stone types themselves likely have some minor (subtle) contributions to the sound. But I'd definitely bet that they're the same core magnets and motors.
As far as output levels and weights of Koetsu stones, these too seem pretty consistent to me. The output is definitely affected by magnet type (samarium cobalt is much stronger), and all the Platinum models seem roughly consistent. Weight too, is pretty consistent, except for an oddball Onyx Platinum P022 I have that's 2-3g heavier than anything else. I also used to feel the RSP was slightly inferior to the "typical" stone Platinums, but don't feel that way anymore. And I've always liked Blue Lace the best of the lot, but they're all fantastic!
Last edited:
The Vermillion is SUCH an interesting model because it looks truly unique among modern Koetsu offerings. I've read variants of its "double coil silver & copper" description for ages but never imagined it actually means alternating coils of silver versus copper wire, finely interleaved. Look at this pic (NOT my pic; I pulled it from vinylengine forum user Delta667):
Delta667 said:
That's pretty cool
I take your word on the sound, and I'd love to hear one in my system too. All Koetsu love a great SUT, but for Vermillion this might be even more true.
Wow - coolest pic I’ve seen in a long time!! Yeah the Vermillion is the one Koetsu that really differ from the rest of the models. Double coils, lowest output signal… yet it is a force to be reckoned with. I have used it with and without my SUT, as my phonostage has a gain of 76dB at max. The Vermillion sounded quite okay just going through the phonostage at ca 72-73 dB gain. But going through the SUT (23dB gain), then into the phonostage with only 45dB gain, made the Vermillion to a beast. The bass impact was mindblowing, the mids and the high’s were also out of this world. The Vermillion is definitely finding it’s way back here for good soon.The Vermillion is SUCH an interesting model because it looks truly unique among modern Koetsu offerings. I've read variants of its "double coil silver & copper" description for ages but never imagined it actually means alternating coils of silver versus copper wire, finely interleaved. Look at this pic (NOT my pic; I pulled it from vinylengine forum user Delta667):
That's pretty cool
I take your word on the sound, and I'd love to hear one in my system too. All Koetsu love a great SUT, but for Vermillion this might be even more true.
/ Jk
It was rumoured for a long time that the motor assembly for all Koetsu are the same. They are made in a large batch.
After production, each one is graded. The better ones are used in stone bodies, the ordinary ones in wooden bodies. Only the best ones are selected for diamond cantilever. This practice is like vacuum tube production.
Black and Rosewood are listed as using Samarium magnet. Rosewood Signature uses Permedur, like the Urushis. And of course, platinum stones use platinum.
Sadly, it's still hard to trust any details published on Koetsu, beyond very basics. For the longest time, Rosewood & Urushi models specified samarium-cobalt magnets. That makes sense, as being a rare-earth element its strength is much higher than platinum and alnico magnets of similar size, and the higher output levels of these Koetsu models gels with that.
I did notice that (at some point) the Urushi specification changed to "permendur magnet". But that's not really a magnet itself. Permendur is a magnetic material, good for pole pieces and armatures (i.e. it's good at holding magnetic flux from a magnet). The actual magnet is probably still samarium cobalt. Other parts of the motor may very well be permendur.
Stumbled into the Upscale Audio Koetsu online shop, and it lists different magnet types for different Urushi models.
Vermillion - Permendur
Wajima - Samarium Cobalt
Tsugaru - Neodymium
Sky Blue - Samarium Cobalt
Rosewood Signature - Samarium Cobalt
But in the Koetsu USA site, it lists all Urushi as using Permendur magnet.
There lies the mystical confusion.
Vermillion - Permendur
Wajima - Samarium Cobalt
Tsugaru - Neodymium
Sky Blue - Samarium Cobalt
Rosewood Signature - Samarium Cobalt
But in the Koetsu USA site, it lists all Urushi as using Permendur magnet.
There lies the mystical confusion.
Tsugaru listed as "Neodymium" blows my mindStumbled into the Upscale Audio Koetsu online shop, and it lists different magnet types for different Urushi models.
Vermillion - Permendur
Wajima - Samarium Cobalt
Tsugaru - Neodymium
Sky Blue - Samarium Cobalt
Rosewood Signature - Samarium Cobalt
But in the Koetsu USA site, it lists all Urushi as using Permendur magnet.
There lies the mystical confusion.
Wow, that would DEFINITELY change its sound relative to the others. But can we trust it? Seems like a combination of poor/sporadic info supplied from Koetsu Japan, plus "lost in translation" issues going on with the distributors.
Many years ago when I was still a dealer I remember hearing from my distributor Urushi models used Neodymium. And the rosewood would be using samarium cobalt. That's what I would tell customers. It's only about now that I read about permendur.Tsugaru listed as "Neodymium" blows my mind
Wow, that would DEFINITELY change its sound relative to the others. But can we trust it? Seems like a combination of poor/sporadic info supplied from Koetsu Japan, plus "lost in translation" issues going on with the distributors.
Looking up permandur returns that it’s a soft magnetic alloy suitable for transformers and chokes so most likely the yoke is made from this but not the magnet itself.
Similar threads
