Magico M9 vs. Magico Ultimate 3 Horn- Box vs. Horn! Which will be better? In which ways?

[Addicted to hifi]

Both stunning speakers.

 

[Don Reid]

Both are stunning speakers indeed, but to me the theoretical advantage (I haven't heard either.) goes to the M9 even though I am a horn speaker disciple. That is because the Ultimate is not a horn system but instead a hybrid system that includes horns. When I first read the Absolute Sound review of the Ultimate I was shocked that this pursuit of SOTA only extended down to the bass where they crapped out with a single direct radiator woofer. Sheesh! This is like putting recapped tires on a 911 Turbo.
Horns for deep bass don't have to be house sized. Consider folded corner horns. Look at Living Voice's highly acclaimed horn woofers, etc. As I have said before horn bass is the icing on the cake.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Both are stunning speakers indeed, but to me the theoretical advantage (I haven't heard either.) goes to the M9 even though I am a horn speaker disciple. That is because the Ultimate is not a horn system but instead a hybrid system that includes horns. When I first read the Absolute Sound review of the Ultimate I was shocked that this pursuit of SOTA only extended down to the bass where they crapped out with a single direct radiator woofer. Sheesh! This is like putting recapped tires on a 911 Turbo.
Horns for deep bass don't have to be house sized. Consider folded corner horns. Look at Living Voice's highly acclaimed horn woofers, etc. As I have said before horn bass is the icing on the cake.

Agree with you.I am a horn enthusiast as well.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Both stunning but I would definitely go with the ultimate 3.

 

[Audire]

IMO, Magico is missing out not developing a H series, for horns. IMO, we’re missing out as well. …

I’m purchasing M3s which should be here by December or earlier, but looking forward to M6 Mk 2 (or whatever Magico labels it) to possibly place in our new room we are considering building in the next year.

Magico has an amazing opportunity of developing a new M3 and M6 which would greatly benefit from both the trickle down tech of the M9s and Magico Ultimate combined ... maybe a MH series …

 

[andromedaaudio]

The question whether horns are better versus regular cone speakers is a often emerging topic .
I have asked very expirienced listeners on this site ( with potential golden ears, lol ) to provide some basic freq response data and prove their claim .
Iow to see if horns meet the minimal " gold standard " by staying within a +- 3 db limit over the 20 -20 khz range .

So far i have seen nothing .

Regarding the M 9 versus the Magico Ultimate Horn
This would be a opportunity for magico to provide some actual horn data ( FR response ) same for the M9 and see how it compares to their ultimate Horn .

Ps For these prices that would be not much to ask for

 

[kodomo]

The question whether horns are better versus regular cone speakers is a often emerging topic .
I have asked very expirienced listeners on this site ( with potential golden ears, lol ) to provide some basic freq response data and prove their claim .
Iow to see if horns meet the minimal " gold standard " by staying within a +- 3 db limit over the 20 -20 khz range .

So far i have seen nothing .

Here is my diy system, it is a 5 way horn system with about 109db efficiency. It is a half a db better than +-3db, it is with passive crossover too so no dsp etc. The bass below 120hz is active open baffle servo, the rest is cf 110hz tractrix horn, cf 200hz tractrix horn, cf1400hz JMLC horn and fostex t500amkII tweeter.

The graph shows flat response. I also have the option to tilt bass, or adjust mid, upper mid and tweeter levels and match harman or toole target responses. Nowadays I am enjoying something between toole and harman, slight upper tilt at bass and slightly lowering towards treble. 200hz slight peak is from side reflections and will be tamed in my next room.

the sple response is in 5db scale and from 20hz to 22khz

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Here is my diy system, it is a 5 way horn system with about 109db efficiency. It is a half a db better than +-3db, it is with passive crossover too so no dsp etc. The bass below 120hz is active open baffle servo, the rest is cf 110hz tractrix horn, cf 200hz tractrix horn, cf1400hz JMLC horn and fostex t500amkII tweeter.

The graph shows f?at response. I also have the option to tilt bass, or adjust mid, upper mid and tweeter levels and match harman or toole target responses. Nowadays I am enjoying something between toole and harman, slight upper tilt at bass and slightly lowering towards treble. 200hz slight peak is from side reflections and will be tamed in my next room.

the sple response is in 5db scale and from 29hz to 22khz

Sounds impressive.any picture?

 

[kodomo]

Sounds impressive.any picture?

Photos on monoandstereo website from when this measurement was taken; https://www.monoandstereo.com/2019/11/okan-soylu-horn-system.html#more

There also should be a page on my system at this website (found it: https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/horn-based-system-from-southern-coast-of-turkey.26367/page-3) . You can see how the bass solution has changed over the years. I think I need to update that page too, as neither that one or the monoandstereo is how the room is the latest. Still it is 95% there on these pages and I will be moving in a few months...

I actually continue to develop my room and fine tune my speakers, This system is my private testbed and reference. I have been doing acoustic consulting and also started developing commercial speakers. They are not like these speakers but are unique new offerings.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Photos on monoandstereo website from when this measurement was taken; https://www.monoandstereo.com/2019/11/okan-soylu-horn-system.html#more

There also should be a page on my system at this website (found it: https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/horn-based-system-from-southern-coast-of-turkey.26367/page-3) . You can see how the bass solution has changed over the years. I think I need to update that page too, as neither that one or the monoandstereo is how the room is the latest. Still it is 95% there on these pages and I will be moving in a few months...

I actually continue to develop my room and fine tune my speakers, This system is my private testbed and reference. I have been doing acoustic consulting and also started developing commercial speakers. They are not like these speakers but are unique new offerings.

Thanks I will check them out.I am a fan of very high sensitivity horn speakers.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Here is my diy system, it is a 5 way horn system with about 109db efficiency. It is a half a db better than +-3db, it is with passive crossover too so no dsp etc. The bass below 120hz is active open baffle servo, the rest is cf 110hz tractrix horn, cf 200hz tractrix horn, cf1400hz JMLC horn and fostex t500amkII tweeter.

The graph shows f?at response. I also have the option to tilt bass, or adjust mid, upper mid and tweeter levels and match harman or toole target responses. Nowadays I am enjoying something between toole and harman, slight upper tilt at bass and slightly lowering towards treble. 200hz slight peak is from side reflections and will be tamed in my next room.

the sple response is in 5db scale and from 29hz to 22khz

Amazing work looks perfect...respect
I think it was a long journey to build it like this

 

[andromedaaudio]

Here is my diy system, it is a 5 way horn system with about 109db efficiency. It is a half a db better than +-3db, it is with passive crossover too so no dsp etc. The bass below 120hz is active open baffle servo, the rest is cf 110hz tractrix horn, cf 200hz tractrix horn, cf1400hz JMLC horn and fostex t500amkII tweeter.

The graph shows f?at response. I also have the option to tilt bass, or adjust mid, upper mid and tweeter levels and match harman or toole target responses. Nowadays I am enjoying something between toole and harman, slight upper tilt at bass and slightly lowering towards treble. 200hz slight peak is from side reflections and will be tamed in my next room.

the sple response is in 5db scale and from 29hz to 22khz

Sorry but i m highly skeptical of your graph to say it gently , because its not possible to have a flat line in room response measurement in the 20 hz - 400 hz region with a passive X crossover .

No manufacturer can achieve that not Magico not YG not Wilson not Dynaudio .......

Brg HJ

 

[LL21]

Interesting...this is a photo from our Velodyne after hours and hours (and hours!) of set up with all of its dials and controls. We finally got there, it seems...though I have read some say the Velodyne measurement instruments for some reason are not always super-duper accurate.

 

[kodomo]

Sorry but i m highly skeptical of your graph to say it gently , because its not possible to have a flat line in room response measurement in the 20 hz - 400 hz region with a passive X crossover .

No manufacturer can achieve that not Magico not YG not Wilson not Dynaudio .......

Brg HJ

I think, it would be better if I answer you on my system page as this is not the place for my system and its response. Please read there, as I will answer you on it.

 

[HenryD]

I think, it would be better if I answer you on my system page as this is not the place for my system and its response. Please read there, as I will answer you on it.

Perhaps you or someone can explain; my understanding of accurate horn loading is that the mouth/throat size has to support the frqs it's playing and that it is determined by the low frq wavelength its reproducing. As such, a size of a horn generating 50Hz is huge. According to some online horn sizes calculations, something like 10X10X15 feet (We all saw pictures of these huge horn systems in Japan). So how are you achieving such a response with what looks like a 30" -40" horn, or the bass horn is not in the picture? I know there are "tricks" like quarter wavelength etc., but wouldn't that be like using a transmission line and not an actual horn loading?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Perhaps you or someone can explain; my understanding of accurate horn loading is that the mouth/throat size has to support the frqs it's playing and that it is determined by the low frq wavelength its reproducing. As such, a size of a horn generating 50Hz is huge. According to some online horn sizes calculations, something like 10X10X15 feet (We all saw pictures of these huge horn systems in Japan). So how are you achieving such a response with what looks like a 30" -40" horn, or the bass horn is not in the picture? I know there are "tricks" like quarter wavelength etc., but wouldn't that be like using a transmission line and not an actual horn loading?

I am sure Kodomo will respond in more detail but in short - he isn’t using horn loading down to 50hz. He has an open baffle servo bass H frame solution covering the lowest octaves before he crosses to his mid bass horn with 110hz fc.

Best regards.

 

[HenryD]

Thanks for replying, Bill. Since you seemed to be a “horn guy,” can you please explain the terminology. Many here refer to their system as a horn-loaded system (including you).
Does that also mean that only part of the system is horn-loaded? I mean, based on what I gather, none of these systems are fully horn-loaded, right?

 

[kodomo]

Thanks for replying, Bill. Since you seemed to be a “horn guy,” can you please explain the terminology. Many here refer to their system as a horn-loaded system (including you).
Does that also mean that only part of the system is horn-loaded? I mean, based on what I gather, none of these systems are fully horn-loaded, right?

Yes, my biggest horn has about 40" diamter at mouth and about 40" depth. That is a fc 110hz horn midbass or upperbass horn. To load it down to its fc there is a trick called reactance annuling and that is what I am doing. Below 110hz my system has an Open baffle H frame servo bass solution. Even the big old western electric horns had open baffle solutions for bass

I have built 20hz horns but they were not front loaded, they were tapped horns. If you want to have horn loading below 100hz, there are other ways like folded horns or tapped horns that make them a little more practical. When I say practical, my 20hz horn was 8 feet long and the horn path was folded so the actual path length was about 16 feet. I also have a klipschorn which has a folded horn that uses the corners as the last segment walls of its horn. I guess that is the most practical (in terms of space) bass horn solution

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Yes, my biggest horn has about 40" diamter at mouth and about 40" depth. That is a fc 110hz horn midbass or upperbass horn. To load it down to its fc there is a trick called reactance annuling and that is what I am doing. Below 110hz my system has an Open baffle H frame servo bass solution. Even the big old western electric horns had open baffle solutions for bass

I have built 20hz horns but they were not front loaded, they were tapped horns. If you want to have horn loading below 100hz, there are other ways like folded horns or tapped horns that make them a little more practical. When I say practical, my 20hz horn was 8 feet long and the horn path was folded so the actual path length was about 16 feet. I also have a klipschorn which has a folded horn that uses the corners as the last segment walls of its horn. I guess that is the most practical (in terms of space) bass horn solution

I also have a pair of klipschorns in the Back of the room for occasional listen.great speakers.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Thanks for replying, Bill. Since you seemed to be a “horn guy,” can you please explain the terminology. Many here refer to their system as a horn-loaded system (including you).
Does that also mean that only part of the system is horn-loaded? I mean, based on what I gather, none of these systems are fully horn-loaded, right?

Hi,

Indeed there are not many fully horn loaded systems available (20hz to 20khz). The community at large have adopted the nomenclature “horns” even when they are referring to a hybrid type system (horn on top and non horn bass solutions whether it be reflex, open baffle, etc).

It is often not the case that the user wouldn’t wish for bass horn loading but the practicalities of achieving this are extremely challenging due to physics. Very few audiophiles (and their wives) are willing to accommodate the colossal size needed.

In terms of your last point - in fact there are indeed some fully horn loaded systems on wbf. Leif’s is such an example, both the massive Cessaro systems of Jeroen and Tang are, Sven’s horn solutions systems, and probably a few others.

Fwiw - some very big proponents of horn loading including Romy the Cat (see his forum) don’t feel compelled to cover their lowest octaves with horn loading - Romy uses a bass line array for instance.

Hope this helps.