Magico M9 vs. Magico Ultimate 3 Horn- Box vs. Horn! Which will be better? In which ways?

[morricab]

Hi,

Indeed there are not many fully horn loaded systems available (20hz to 20khz). The community at large have adopted the nomenclature “horns” even when they are referring to a hybrid type system (horn on top and non horn bass solutions whether it be reflex, open baffle, etc).

It is often not the case that the user wouldn’t wish for bass horn loading but the practicalities of achieving this are extremely challenging due to physics. Very few audiophiles (and their wives) are willing to accommodate the colossal size needed.

In terms of your last point - in fact there are indeed some fully horn loaded systems on wbf. Leif’s is such an example, both the massive Cessaro systems of Jeroen and Tang are, Sven’s horn solutions systems, and probably a few others.

Fwiw - some very big proponents of horn loading including Romy the Cat (see his forum) don’t feel compelled to cover their lowest octaves with horn loading - Romy uses a bass line array for instance.

Hope this helps.

The Aries Cerat Symphonia is also fully horn loaded and good to around 30Hz. They also have a fully horn loaded sub to go with it.
My Odeons are also fully horn loaded where the mouth of the horn opens the floor and this extends the horn . Bass to 40hz but not much below that.

Finally TQWT offers a type of horn/reflex hybrid that goes a bit deeper than a normal exponential horn but has speed and punch unlike sealed or vented boxes.

 

[HenryD]

To recap, none of the visible horn systems on WBF are fully horn-loaded (TQWT is a version of a transmission line, which has its pros and cons, just like all other bass alignments).
A compromise is needed below a certain frq.

 

[PeterA]

To recap, none of the visible horn systems on WBF are fully horn-loaded (TQWT is a version of a transmission line, which has its pros and cons, just like all other bass alignments).
A compromise is needed below a certain frq.

Henry, How would you describe my Vitavox CN-191corner horns? They have a non visible 15 inch paper cone driver firing into an enclosure which has folded rear vents opening up and loading the corner walls of the room. Is that not a real loaded horn? The speakers are certainly not full range, but I think the response is low to mid 30s up to about 15,000 Hz.

 

[earlinarizona]

I think the above statment left out one of the most beautifull sounding ALL HORN loudspeaker off your list. The Vox Olympian with the Elysian Subwoofer. The main box is a 4 way Exponential horn layout and the seperate gigantic Elysian sub woofer for below 70hz. It is a Front Loaded Exponential horn. At Munich I got a chance to hear many horns but the changing of sound to the sub woofer on some was very disconnected. Some used sealed boxes and some used ported boxes. When I went into the Living Voice room it sounded as one system with no attention being drawn to the woofers. They actually sounded like an extension of the main speaker as they did not sound like subs. Each of the Elysian sub units weigh 507lbs for a total of 1,014 pounds just for the subs. I think keeping all horns says a lot for the continuity of the sound from top to bottom.
Internal layout of the sub.



Notice the massive size of the sub.

 

[the sound of Tao]

The premise of this thread has always been about an anomaly. Nobody really thinks of Magico as a horn speaker company. Alon Wolf is a box speaker guy and after the ultimate horn didn’t realise far beyond its original iteration and never established volumes Ultimately his flagship was always going to have to realign and eventually reflect that Magico is a box with cones speaker maker.

The Ultimate horn proved largely only as something of a fascinating diversion, more of an off campus exploration and more power to Alon Wolf for having that determination and for exploring beyond his immediate familiar design boundaries. Seems largely to be a closed chapter though. As a concept it always seemed to be an inappropriate and wildly uneasy ecosystem fit.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

To recap, none of the visible horn systems on WBF are fully horn-loaded (TQWT is a version of a transmission line, which has its pros and cons, just like all other bass alignments).
A compromise is needed below a certain frq.

What do you mean visible? Leif’s is very “visible” and horn loaded to 30hz. Tang’s is very visible and horn loaded to 30 ish.
Do you mean visible and loaded at 20hz? If so it is true.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I think the above statment left out one of the most beautifull sounding ALL HORN loudspeaker off your list. The Vox Olympian with the Elysian Subwoofer. The main box is a 4 way Exponential horn layout and the seperate gigantic Elysian sub woofer for below 70hz. It is a Front Loaded Exponential horn. At Munich I got a chance to hear many horns but the changing of sound to the sub woofer on some was very disconnected. Some used sealed boxes and some used ported boxes. When I went into the Living Voice room it sounded as one system with no attention being drawn to the woofers. They actually sounded like an extension of the main speaker as they did not sound like subs. Each of the Elysian sub units weigh 507lbs for a total of 1,014 pounds just for the subs. I think keeping all horns says a lot for the continuity of the sound from top to bottom.
View attachment 83606 Internal layout of the sub.



Notice the massive size of the sub.

View attachment 83607 View attachment 83608 View attachment 83609 View attachment 83610

The conversation has been about WBF horn systems - I wasn’t aware we had a member with the full Vox system although I think it is ubiquitously well known.

 

[HenryD]

What do you mean visible? Leif’s is very “visible” and horn loaded to 30hz. Tang’s is very visible and horn loaded to 30 ish.
Do you mean visible and loaded at 20hz? If so it is true.

Wow, that must be huge then, even at 30Hz

 

[bonzo75]

Leif's is horn loaded to 15 Hz. Yes it is big

Trios with bass horns are horn loaded

For me the big difference with horn/non horn loading comes in the midbass, maybe up to 100. Altec 817 moves to vents at 100ish and sounds fine. I heard another DIY move to subs at 75 Hz and that felt fine.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Leif's is horn loaded to 15 Hz. Yes it is big

Trios with bass horns are horn loaded

For me the big difference with horn/non horn loading comes in the midbass, maybe up to 100. Altec 817 moves to vents at 100ish and sounds fine. I heard another DIY move to subs at 75 Hz and that felt fine.

Hi Ked,

lol no Leif’s is most certainly not horn loaded to 15hz. It is horn loaded, as I said, to around 30hz. Output is below 30hz just that it is below the horn fc - that is direct radiating in the 20s.

Agree with the comment on the mid bass bit for sure.

 

[earlinarizona]

Dimensions of the Living Voice Sub-Woofer is 50' deep 53.5 high and 14.5 inches wide. That is a lot of sub-woofer. It even has built in retractables wheels so you can move it easier. Turn the crank and the wheels come out of the bottom, lifting the cabinet and exposing the four wheels.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Dimensions of the Living Voice Sub-Woofer is 50' deep 53.5 high and 14.5 inches wide. That is a lot of sub-woofer. It even has built in retractables wheels so you can move it easier. Turn the crank and the wheels come out of the bottom, lifting the cabinet and exposing the four wheels.

The main size of that thing is in the folding internally to enable it to function.

 

[HenryD]

The main size of that thing is in the folding internally to enable it to function.

But how does it function with such a small mouth?

 

[morricab]

To recap, none of the visible horn systems on WBF are fully horn-loaded (TQWT is a version of a transmission line, which has its pros and cons, just like all other bass alignments).
A compromise is needed below a certain frq.

Tqwt is the inverse of a transmission line (TLs taper not expand) and is a horn based on standing waves rather than putting the driver at the throat of the horn.
As I said, the Aries Cerat Syphomia is fully horn loaded as are my Odeons. So are any Klipschorn or La Scalla owners here, JBL Hartsfield owners, Vitavox cn119 owners, Bionor owners etc.

 

[LL21]

Dimensions of the Living Voice Sub-Woofer is 50' deep 53.5 high and 14.5 inches wide. That is a lot of sub-woofer. It even has built in retractables wheels so you can move it easier. Turn the crank and the wheels come out of the bottom, lifting the cabinet and exposing the four wheels.

That is super cool. What a great idea...it weighs some 230kg!!! I hope it is easy to handcrank it!

 

[Audiophile Bill]

But how does it function with such a small mouth?

Hi Henry,

Well you get into a slightly grey area here in terms of a “true horn” and the specific maths applied to that versus the compromise made by many folded sub horn designers. If you adopt the “true horn” definition, indeed the mouth would need to be obscenely big to hit 30hz (which is I think approx what the Elysian goes down to). Doing the standard maths, a length of 1/2 the cut off frequency wavelength and a mouth perimeter of the wavelength of the cut off frequency would yield this true horn behaviour.

But in reality, designers make compromises on the perfect mathematical dimensions which takes the horn loading away from behaving perfectly and inducing resonances and some other unwanted characteristics. That said the aim here is to radically improve the efficiency of the horn in question versus direct radiating bass. As such one can make a 30Hz horn in a cabinet of such size. I would guess the Elysian is around 4.5-5 metres long inside with folding.

To start to understand the compromises about the folding and mouth size, you can start by looking at software such as Hornresp to model the acoustic impedance, electrical impedance, wavelength propagation, frequency response etc.

Hope this is useful. In short - it is about compromise on the ideal horn mathematics and taking a pragmatic approach on the solution to get the desired output.

Have a look at say sub horns by Bill Fitzmaurice or Pi Audio.

Best.

 

[jeff1225]

To recap, none of the visible horn systems on WBF are fully horn-loaded (TQWT is a version of a transmission line, which has its pros and cons, just like all other bass alignments).
A compromise is needed below a certain frq.

There are a few horn loaded systems on WBF including two Cessero's, several Klipschorns, one Vitavox and Tannoy Westminister.

 

[HenryD]

Thank you, Bill. I appreciate your reply. It basically reiterates my understanding that most of the so-called bass horns are some sort of a compromise due to the enormous size a" true horn" requires. Something to consider when comparing loudspeakers pros and cons.

 

[LL21]

Thank you, Bill. I appreciate your reply. It basically reiterates my understanding that most of the so-called bass horns are some sort of a compromise due to the enormous size a" true horn" requires. Something to consider when comparing loudspeakers pros and cons.

I concur...that has always been one of those things which made horns a difficult commitment for me to investigate. The few that I have heard were not as compelling a proposition as I had hoped to investigate further and more thoroughly. And certain speakers (2' x 2' footrpint of XLF, 2' x 3' of Rockport Arrakis) just deliver such enormous dynamics, power, nuance, etc...in such a small footprint, I can understand why these options exist (ie, for people like me).

That said, I remain intrigued by what the 'best' of horns can provide...Living Voice 4-box, Avantgarde Trios + basshorns, and of course the big Oswald Mills Imperia (7 feet tall by 5 feet deep!) with its dual 21" subs (which appear to have some kind of horn design with those cones). Anything bigger than these REALLY starts to become difficult to fathom (Bionor's are the obvious one, DDK!)

 

[the sound of Tao]

Design always comes back to working with the constraints and choosing which of the compromises are bearable. There’s many good reasons to own different kinds of speakers. The more I live with the potentials of horn type speakers the less I am drawn to the traditional box and dynamic cone types. But that is just one perspective. Music is diverse as are we. Different speakers excel at different music. Diversity is a cultural and audiophile asset and gives range to experience and opportunity. This is just about a preference and the qualities that we in time can come to most appreciate.