Magico M9 vs. Magico Ultimate 3 Horn- Box vs. Horn! Which will be better? In which ways?

[bonzo75]

I concur...that has always been one of those things which made horns a difficult commitment for me to investigate. The few that I have heard were not as compelling a proposition as I had hoped to investigate further and more thoroughly. And certain speakers (2' x 2' footrpint of XLF, 2' x 3' of Rockport Arrakis) just deliver such enormous dynamics, power, nuance, etc...in such a small footprint, I can understand why these options exist (ie, for people like me).

That said, I remain intrigued by what the 'best' of horns can provide...Living Voice 4-box, Avantgarde Trios + basshorns, and of course the big Oswald Mills Imperia (7 feet tall by 5 feet deep!) with its dual 21" subs (which appear to have some kind of horn design with those cones). Anything bigger than these REALLY starts to become difficult to fathom (Bionor's are the obvious one, DDK!)

My favorite sushi place in London, Yashin, does not have a good dessert chef. That does not mean an alternative is the corner sandwich shop which does the main course and brownie with the same consistency.

In short, even without a bass that is horn loaded below 100, there are 15 - 20k of music in highs, midrange, and midbass that the horns do much better. It's difficult for me to listen to violin, brass, woodwinds, and piano on most cones especially wilson and magico and raidho. That aside, it is not cones have a consistent implementation approach from top to bottom. You can check if their drivers are similar with same sensitivity and impedance on top and bottom. The incoherence through the crossover is quite easy to hear especially the bigger the cone gets.

ps: The OMA Imperia is quite lesser quality compared to their own Monarch. The Imperia is too disjoint.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Thank you, Bill. I appreciate your reply. It basically reiterates my understanding that most of the so-called bass horns are some sort of a compromise due to the enormous size a" true horn" requires. Something to consider when comparing loudspeakers pros and cons.

Yes indeed so. That said if “our” goal is to improve efficiency and directivity versus direct radiation, even such compromises get us drastically further towards this end point. Is an interesting quandary.

I built some large and not waf friendly mid bass horns of a conical profile during lockdown here - they simulated beautifully with my chosen Supravox driver and measured well. They were very much the next level of performance here but alas I can’t have them due to their size lol.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I concur...that has always been one of those things which made horns a difficult commitment for me to investigate. The few that I have heard were not as compelling a proposition as I had hoped to investigate further and more thoroughly. And certain speakers (2' x 2' footrpint of XLF, 2' x 3' of Rockport Arrakis) just deliver such enormous dynamics, power, nuance, etc...in such a small footprint, I can understand why these options exist (ie, for people like me).

That said, I remain intrigued by what the 'best' of horns can provide...Living Voice 4-box, Avantgarde Trios + basshorns, and of course the big Oswald Mills Imperia (7 feet tall by 5 feet deep!) with its dual 21" subs (which appear to have some kind of horn design with those cones). Anything bigger than these REALLY starts to become difficult to fathom (Bionor's are the obvious one, DDK!)

I don’t think the fact that a designer doesn’t have to commit to the full math of a true horn down to 20hz should stop any investigations of such a topology. Even compromised bass horns will yield an efficiency and directivity gain versus direct radiating woofers.
My own view is that the real magic for horn loading happens in the mid bass where you can indeed follow the full principles if you do wish.
That said, the Living Voice Vox Olympian, as an example, is a front loaded and *folded* mid bass horn FYI. The Trio is folded / compromised on true horn maths sub 100hz, the OMA uses conical horns (which pros and cons fwiw - gains in constant directivity losses in efficiency of loading) and back loaded folded horn sub woofers. Also one last point, what constitutes your definition of “best?” Price?

 

[morricab]

I don’t think the fact that a designer doesn’t have to commit to the full math of a true horn down to 20hz should stop any investigations of such a topology. Even compromised bass horns will yield an efficiency and directivity gain versus direct radiating woofers.
My own view is that the real magic for horn loading happens in the mid bass where you can indeed follow the full principles if you do wish.
That said, the Living Voice Vox Olympian, as an example, is a front loaded and *folded* mid bass horn FYI. The Trio is folded / compromised on true horn maths sub 100hz, the OMA uses conical horns (which pros and cons fwiw - gains in constant directivity losses in efficiency of loading) and back loaded folded horn sub woofers. Also one last point, what constitutes your definition of “best?” Price?

It’s interesting you mentioned mid-bass because that is exactly where my Odeons crush it and give huge impact compared direct radiators...even big ones.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

It’s interesting you mentioned mid-bass because that is exactly where my Odeons crush it and give huge impact compared direct radiators...even big ones.

The mid bass really is the anchor to most music I listen to (classical and jazz) indeed the anchor for most music full stop. The clarity, insight and perceived speed of true front loaded horn mid bass with a great driver is something to behold ime.

 

[HenryD]

Thank you, Bill. Although appreciating their strength (dynamics, immediacy, ease), I have never heard a horn setup that I would want to live with (mainly due to gross horn coloration that, funny enough, horns lovers are immune to). I can only suspect there are many other 'considerations' to make but bass alignment. I was curious about the bass due to the criticism of the Ultimate bass alignment choice, which you guys are now saying its not really where the meat is anyway, and that below 100hz, a compromise is almost always needed.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I listened today to large JBL horns on western electric tubes .
And Avantgarde Duo mezzo XD horns in the avantgarde room
The JBL s were just awful sounding the avantgardes also sound far from natural to me , i managed to stay long enough for 3 songs just to do KED a favour .
Same feeling i had years ago nothing changed.
I ll go to munchen next year and that ll probably be the last show i go to

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Thank you, Bill. Although appreciating their strength (dynamics, immediacy, ease), I have never heard a horn setup that I would want to live with (mainly due to gross horn coloration that, funny enough, horns lovers are immune to). I can only suspect there are many other 'considerations' to make but bass alignment. I was curious about the bass due to the criticism of the Ultimate bass alignment choice, which you guys are now saying its not really where the meat is anyway, and that below 100hz, a compromise is almost always needed.

I used to be massively disturbed by horn colouration. There are great horns without that cupped hands type thing if that is what disturbs your ears as it did me.

What speakers are you using right now out of interest?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I listened today to large JBL horns on western electric tubes .
And Avantgarde Duo mezzo XD horns in the avantgarde room
The JBL s were just awful sounding the avantgardes also sound far from natural to me , i managed to stay long enough for 3 songs just to do KED a favour .
Same feeling i had years ago nothing changed.
I ll go to munchen next year and that ll probably be the last show i go to

Try to hear the WE and the Vox O rooms as most people tend to enjoy those and they tend to get informal “best in show” ratings on forums each year.

Anyway - I wouldn’t concern yourself with trying to understand why some like horns. If you like boxes and see no merit with horns then great - each to their own. We can all enjoy whatever we want.

 

[LL21]

My favorite sushi place in London, Yashin, does not have a good dessert chef. That does not mean an alternative is the corner sandwich shop which does the main course and brownie with the same consistency.

Not a perfect analogy for me because you can skip the dessert and keep only the best part. With speakers, you have to take everything. The better analogy is saying someone had good ingredients for a meal, but then burned it. You cannot take one without the other. With a speaker (at least for me), i am listening to everything...deep bass, the rumble, the echo, the strings, the whistles. And as a personal preference, if I could choose only one option: I would also rather have very good full range than only ever be able to play a tremendous speaker that stops at 75hz.

That is not right nor wrong...but that would be my choice. The reason is because subterranean all the way to 20hz is exceedingly important to me. Despite all the discontinuity between my bookshelf speakers and my subs (going back 25 years)...I preferred having the sub than NOT having the sub because I prioritized deep bass over perfect continuity but stopping at 60hz. The reason is I find it equally a "fault" for me not to have full range and particularly subterranean bass that can produce spacial cues, sense of space, etc. Personal priorities in sound.

For me the XLF best delivers in the best package all of those priorities. And so far, the horns I have heard do not. That is not to say there arent horns that fulfill them, just that I have not heard them yet. I have no doubt there are phenomenal horns that can do mindblowingly cool things. And some day, I might even hear one of them. Would love to hear the Vox Olympia for example...but again with that massive subhorn, they take up too much floorspace unfortunately.

 

[LL21]

My favorite sushi place in London, Yashin, does not have a good dessert chef. That does not mean an alternative is the corner sandwich shop which does the main course and brownie with the same consistency.

BTW, have you tried Sushi Tetsu? So far the best we have had in London. Only 6-8 seats, but he is seriously committed to his art. Very impressive.

 

[morricab]

I listened today to large JBL horns on western electric tubes .
And Avantgarde Duo mezzo XD horns in the avantgarde room
The JBL s were just awful sounding the avantgardes also sound far from natural to me , i managed to stay long enough for 3 songs just to do KED a favour .
Same feeling i had years ago nothing changed.
I ll go to munchen next year and that ll probably be the last show i go to

Which JBL speakers are we talking about exactly? Which WE tubes?

 

[morricab]

Thank you, Bill. Although appreciating their strength (dynamics, immediacy, ease), I have never heard a horn setup that I would want to live with (mainly due to gross horn coloration that, funny enough, horns lovers are immune to). I can only suspect there are many other 'considerations' to make but bass alignment. I was curious about the bass due to the criticism of the Ultimate bass alignment choice, which you guys are now saying its not really where the meat is anyway, and that below 100hz, a compromise is almost always needed.

I was a big planar speaker guy (ribbons and stats) so I know what you mean by coloration; however there are horns out there without the serious flaws you describe as hating.

 

[bonzo75]

BTW, have you tried Sushi Tetsu? So far the best we have had in London. Only 6-8 seats, but he is seriously committed to his art. Very impressive.

I tried booking there many times, never succeeded, given the window for the bookings. Envy you

 

[LL21]

I tried booking there many times, never succeeded, given the window for the bookings. Envy you

Its super good. The closest to Tsukiji market we've been to in London. My wife got speaking with the chef and his wife who run the business. He ships his water from a specific place in Japan to cook his rice. He makes the wasabi for you from the original vegetable right in front of you so it's fresh. He is supremely committed and has said he does not wish to have more than 6-8 seats because he wants every meal to be exquisite, and done completely by himself.

We have been fortunate enough to have been 3 times. It was worth the hassle (no lines of course but my wife has to ring as soon as the month begins for bookings...the entire month sells out in less than 20 minutes).

 

[HenryD]

I used to be massively disturbed by horn colouration. There are great horns without that cupped hands type thing if that is what disturbs your ears as it did me.

What speakers are you using right now out of interest?

Perhaps one day I would be privilege to hear a colorless, seamless horn setup. If such a thing exists, I am sure I would like it.
I am listening to the Magico A5 these days.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Perhaps one day I would be privilege to hear a colorless, seamless horn setup. If such a thing exists, I am sure I would like it.
I am listening to the Magico A5 these days.

Horn speakers might be coloured in sound but they involve you in music like no other speakers imho.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

I like all different types of speakers and even own magnapans but I always find my horn speakers provide me with more enjoyment than any other speakers.

 

[HenryD]

Good for you. Luckily, as Bill said, we can all enjoy whatever we want.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Good for you. Luckily, as Bill said, we can all enjoy whatever we want.

Yes true.we are all different when it comes to speakers And music.