Modern speakers vs Vintage speakers

[PeterA]

David is on record he doesn’t modify speakers and he was also against doing any changes to vintage speakers.

I think this is true.

Tang’s Eurodyn was the first one and I also mentioned to him in one of the threads now he accepts a change is required to vintage speakers.

Tang’s speakers may be the first one David has sold. That does not mean it’s the first one he made or experimented with. Tang did not get the first version. And Tang’s are not the last.

Which vintage speakers does he accept changing?

 

[Rensselaer]

Depends, is it Schrödingers cat ?

Interesting point, perhaps the quality of bass is both enhanced and not enhanced simultaneously while super tweeters engaged.

 

[MarcelNL]

Klangfilm did use pretty standard furniture panels of the era, the speakers were made in the Siemens and Halske carpenters workshop in Karlsruhe....in the vicinity of the pair we listened to there are 4 other folks owning a set....they were a commodity made for Cinema's, not the ultra high end we think is is nowadays.
That they sound great is for sure, and I tend to think that a lot of effort was put into making them sound very natural and life like, yet I'm not ready to think that the design is a product of wizzards using fairy dust and runestones.

From what I know now they were made after a plan but adapted to practicality so we should probably try not to put too much voodo into them. f.e. the drawings that we know are not matching the actual thing in more than one aspect.

 

[MarcelNL]

This sidetrack started when I was asked if I preferred the sound from my speakers (Altec A7’s) with super tweeters engaged or without. I replied I don’t know why, but stated my preference for with.

I explained that I have (measured) high frequency hearing loss in both ears and am unable to hear anything coming from the super tweeters. I added that since I am unable to hear higher frequencies, my preference for the sound with super tweeters must be due to a psychoacoustic effect.

you (and others) chimed in saying that in your blind tests you could hear better bass definition when super tweeters were included. Well bully for you. Would it matter to you if I said I hear no difference in bass quality when comparing with or without super tweeters?

Would it assure you of a further deficit in my hearing if I said the best sounding system I ever heard has cheap lamp cord, or what came in the box, interconnects and power cords, or that my switching to very expensive power cables with gold-plated solid copper sockets connected to a clean dedicated power supply made absolutely no difference in the sound of my system?

Far too many on this forum make claims that have not yet been verified by science. Some of it is peer pressure, a lot of it inspired by a drive for financial gain. Your blind listening tests convinced you of something I haven’t experienced. Maybe my hearing is just too messed up, maybe it’s your fear of saying the emperor’s not wearing any clothes but whatever it is remember, 3,000 Lemmings couldn’t possibly be wrong.

thanks for that summary!

We did the phase correction thingy and the owner of the shown systems was amazed by how much of a difference it made, science IMHO has nothing to do with subjective results... at best it may help explain those effects.
There is far more that has an impact on sound than we currently can measure and know.
Personally I'm convinced that I'm quite sensitive for phase coherence.

I'm not sure where price came into the discussion, from my point of view an expensive power cord does not necessarily sound any better than a lamp cord...in fact I dislike any plating, and am using pure (or as close to it as possible and feasible) copper (not brass) where possible.

I'm not able to explain why you did not hear a difference, all I can say is that once you have heard certain things you cannot un-hear them and it's far easier to pin point those aspects once you heard them.

And lemmings, IMHO they are just lazy cowards committing mass suicide where they should be looking for a solution to get some food for themselves.

 

[PeterA]

Klangfilm did use pretty standard furniture panels of the era, the speakers were made in the Siemens and Halske carpenters workshop in Karlsruhe....in the vicinity of the pair we listened to there are 4 other folks owning a set....they were a commodity made for Cinema's, not the ultra high end we think is is nowadays.
That they sound great is for sure, and I tend to think that a lot of effort was put into making them sound very natural and life like, yet I'm not ready to think that the design is a product of wizzards using fairy dust and runestones.

From what I know now they were made after a plan but adapted to practicality so we should probably try not to put too much voodo into them. f.e. the drawings that we know are not matching the actual thing in more than one aspect.

I did not know they were made in Karlsruhe. My mother’s brother lives there and I visited a few summers ago. Lovely part of Germany. He does a lot of hiking in the Black Forest.

My earlier point was not about wizards and fairy dust though I like the reference to Black Sabbath. My only point was that the people who designed these speakers had different values and the sound of their speakers is a result of those values.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Reproductions and restorations don’t sound the same as originals.

Hi Peter,

Have you directly compared reproductions and restorations to originals yourself?

 

[PeterA]

Hi Peter,

Have you directly compared reproductions and restorations to originals yourself?

No I have not Ron. But I have spoken to people who have and I’ve never read a report from anyone who has made the reproductions claiming that they sound exactly like the originals. Have you ever read such a claim?

 

[MarcelNL]

The lacquer on the van den Hul wood bodies really improved the sound of those too.

sure it did, lacquer can for sure make a difference, yet IMHO it does not transform something into audio nirvana. Lacquer helps, it's important but in the end of day it makes perhaps a 5% difference in the final result (insofar any percentage has a place in such a comparison)

 

[infinitely baffled]

May i ask, can anyone tell me the low frequency response of the Bionor horns?
Can't seem to find anything online.
I'm wondering how they cope with the ~20hz region, which is well represented in modern music.
This seems to be where the vintage designs show their age, they just don't plumb the depths like a truly full-range modern system should.

 

[MarcelNL]

the horns start to decrease output at 50Hz

 

[infinitely baffled]

Thank you Marcel

 

[PeterA]

The pair with which I am familiar uses vintage JBL subwoofers to great affect.

 

[Salectric]

these vintage drivers are unbeatable. Western electric, klangfilm, Goto, Altec, TAD, Ale, Vitavox

Don't forget YL Acoustics (Yoshimura Labs). They made great sounding drivers and horns.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Depends, is it Schrödingers cat ?

If Schrödinger was an audiophile he would have cryogenically frozen the cat to bring it back to life and then put the meteorite in its kitty litter box to help reduce the noise.

 

[Ron Resnick]

No I have not Ron. But I have spoken to people who have and I’ve never read a report from anyone who has made the reproductions claiming that they sound exactly like him the originals. Have you ever read such a claim?

No, but I am not the one making a definitive pronouncement that: "Reproductions and restorations don’t sound the same as originals" -- which led me to assume that you have made your own comparisons and come to this conclusion yourself.

It makes sense to me that reproductions and restorations would not sound the same as originals if for no other reason than because originals have original degraded capacitors.

 

[infinitely baffled]

Don't forget YL Acoustics (Yoshimura Labs). They made great sounding drivers and horns.

Are you familiar with Kinoshita?
I have unhealthy feelings for the Rey Audio RM7. But I've yet to speak to anyone who has heard them in an adequate sized room, so if you had any experience with them, I'd love to hear your impressions?

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[bonzo75]

Are you familiar with Kinoshita?
I have unhealthy feelings for the Rey Audio RM7

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Rey audio is TAD drivers. Haven’t heard the speakers. Reason I am not interested is the midbass is not open horn loaded like for example an Altec 817. So they might be good actually for an apartment and I should seek them out for a listen, but for all out I prefer open horn loading. I am anti closed box cabinet except as a compromise. I think here the midbass has no horn loading.

subs can be added to horn speakers just like any other speaker. Leif’s TAD/JBL speaker, the sub comes in at 75hz and goes down to 15

 

[infinitely baffled]

the horns start to decrease output at 50Hz

Pity, that. They look as though they could be the last word in deep bass.
For me that's an issue with the vintage gear. I prize the same musical qualities as everyone here on this thread, but in addition that performance also has to extend below 20hz. For me It's sine que non. There's so much going on down there in moderm music. Often the melody is in the sub bass region, so this can't be an afterthought or just left to the subwoofers.
the main speakers need to dig down so they merely gain reinforcement below 40hz, not to have subs be the only voice signing at those frequencies, i find.

 

[MarcelNL]

No, but I am not the one making a definitive pronouncement that: "Reproductions and restorations don’t sound the same as originals" -- which led me to assume that you have made your own comparisons and come to this conclusion yourself.

It makes sense to me that reproductions and restorations would not sound the same as originals if for no other reason than because originals have original degraded capacitors.

plenty of the really old vintage speakers do use paper in oil capacitors, those age quite well without degradation

 

[bonzo75]

the main speakers need to dig down so they merely gain reinforcement below 40hz, not to have subs be the only voice signing at those frequencies, i find.

Why vinyl recordings from the golden era do you find go down to 20hz? This makes sense if you are playing digital or playing modern vinyl that goes that deep