Optimum dispersion in speakers

Tapetech

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Gregadd

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I like omnidirectional speakers. The problem is they create thier own ambience. Sometimes that is good.
 
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Robh3606

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I prefer CD systems as I think they have advantages over non CD systems. I have used non CD, and a dipole tweeter system in a Heil driver. Never tried a true omni system. Of the three prefer the Heil and CD set-ups over non CD. l don't like head in vise systems and prefer a larger sweet spot and an unchanging over all room balance.

The Heil does this quite well. The only draw back being a less focused presentation compared to say a CD system.

Rob :)
 

Kal Rubinson

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I like omnidirectional speakers. The problem is they create thier own ambience. Sometimes that is good.
Actually, it is the room that is creating the ambiance and, sometimes, that may be enjoyable.
 

kach22i

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I like omnidirectional speakers. The problem is they create thier own ambience. Sometimes that is good.
I heard one of those anomalies while listening to Museatex Melior One speakers 27 years ago, and although it was distracting for a moment like a fart squeezing out during a conversation, the conversation was good.
 

Gregadd

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Actually, it is the room that is creating the ambiance and, sometimes, that may be enjoyable.
The classic what came firs,t the chicken or egg argument. The room is passive and the speaker is active. Therefore I decided it is the primary actor.
 

Duke LeJeune

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I like omnidirectional speakers. The problem is they create thier own ambience. Sometimes that is good.

Actually, it is the room that is creating the ambiance and, sometimes, that may be enjoyable.

If we put an omni too close to the walls we get an over-abundance of early reflections, and thus an over-abundance of "small room signature" which is superimposed atop the acoustic signature of the venue in the recording... which is not necessarily all bad, but imo it's not ideal.

However if we move that same omni well away from the walls (which implies having a fairly large room to begin with), that "small room signature" is significantly weakened and we may very well hear a reasonable facsimile of the acoustic signature on the recording.

In other words, it is largely the SETUP which determines whether an omni (or dipole or bipole or somesuch) presents us with "more of the recording" or "more of the room we're sitting in".

I went into a bit more detail about this in another thread.
 
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Kal Rubinson

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If we put an omni too close to the walls we get an over-abundance of early reflections, and thus an over-abundance of "small room signature" which is superimposed atop the acoustic signature of the venue in the recording... which is not necessarily all bad, but imo it's not ideal.
Agreed.
However if we move that same omni well away from the walls (which implies having a fairly large room to begin with), that "small room signature" is significantly weakened and we may very well hear a reasonable facsimile of the acoustic signature on the recording.
I do not think so. You do get less of the "small room signature" but, although the signature is of a larger space, it is still colored by and conflated with the acoustic signature of the listening room. Moreover, that signature is applied to both the direct instrument sources as well as the ambient sources in the original performance. It may be more pleasing and "less wrong" but I would not call it a reasonable facsimile.

A "reasonable facsimile" is what one gets with good multichannel which, let's be clear, is not an accurate and totally convincing recreation of the original event unless one is willing to go to fully "immersive" media. Of course, that way lies madness as well as a paucity of music recordings.
 

Duke LeJeune

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[With omni speakers well away from the walls] you do get less of the "small room signature" but, although the signature is of a larger space, it is still colored by and conflated with the acoustic signature of the listening room. Moreover, that signature is applied to both the direct instrument sources as well as the ambient sources in the original performance. It may be more pleasing and "less wrong" but I would not call it a reasonable facsimile.

My experience has been that as you push the onrush of early reflections back in time, you start to hear a much greater difference in the spatial characteristics from one recording to the next. If the effect of increasing the path lengths was merely to make the room's signature "more pleasing", then we would not hear greater spatial variation from one recording to the next.

At Axpona 2016 one of your colleagues, Andew Quint, was in the room and I made my pitch for what I was doing (similar in principle to what you'd get with omnis pulled well away from the walls). He raised an eyebrow and replied, "I'd like to challenge that", and pulled out a thumb drive. It contained a recording made in a concert hall he was familiar with. When it was over, I asked Andrew how we did. He said, "It passed. It's not a gimmick, it works. I could clearly hear the Concertgebouw hall." He posted about it on another forum , and in that post he wrote:

"I've heard music there, and there's truly a sense of sound being present in the air around you.

"The multichannel program on the RCO [Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra] Live SACDs (there are dozens) get this aspect right; so did [Duke's speakers], nearly to the same degree, despite the presence of only two channels. My concern when Duke told me about the rear-firing drivers was that this would impart some generic, Bose-like spaciousness to the recording, but that wasn't the case—what I heard was the unique acoustic signature of the Concertgebouw." [Emphasis mine]

So at least one well-qualified person heard what was arguably a reasonable facsimile of a concert hall he's familiar with from a two-channel setup embracing the aforementioned ideas. And this was in a normal-sized hotel room with ZERO acoustic treatments.

I've been involved with several custom recording studio builds and one goal is that the engineer be able to hear the spatial characteristics of the recording rather than the "small room signature" of the room he is working in. To this end the acoustician designs the room to minimize early reflections. The acoustician I work with, Jeff Hedback, and I get way down in the weeds on matching up the radiation pattern of the speakers with the room dimensions and angles and the engineer's position at the console. I have been in one of his completed rooms and it sure sounded to me like we were hearing spatial characteristics which totally defied the visual cues of the room we were sitting in.

I realize it's highly counter-intuitive to think that the ear could pick out the recording venue's reflections which had been subjected to the listening room's reflections, and I am not sure of the exact psychoacoustic mechanisms involved, but in a nutshell here is what I think is going on: The ear/brain system tries to figure out what the "best fit" is for all of the spatial information coming in, which includes original venue cues and listening room cues. A fairly long initial time delay before the strong onset of reflections weakens the listening room cues and can enable the recording venue cues to dominate our perception.

Further anecdotal evidence of this effect comes from the multitude of dipole speaker owners who hear "more of the recording" and "less of the room" when they pull their speakers five or six feet (or more) out into the room.

A "reasonable facsimile" is what one gets with good multichannel which, let's be clear, is not an accurate and totally convincing recreation of the original event unless one is willing to go to fully "immersive" media. Of course, that way lies madness as well as a paucity of music recordings.

I'm not claiming that two-channel truly rivals good multichannel at its own game, which is creating an immersive experience. I do claim that, with the right choices and a suitable room (untreated hotel rooms theoretically included), two-channel can do a pretty good job of immersion, and I'll also claim that two-channel offers more good recordings to choose from.

Kal, something I have not kept up with is, processors which derive multi-channel sound from a two-channel recording. How do those fit in?
 
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Kal Rubinson

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My experience has been that as you push the onrush of early reflections back in time, you start to hear a much greater difference in the spatial characteristics from one recording to the next. If the effect of increasing the path lengths was merely to make the room's signature "more pleasing", then we would not hear greater spatial variation from one recording to the next.
Not just more pleasing but 'more pleasing and "less wrong."'
At Axpona 2016 one of your colleagues, Andew Quint, was in the room and I made my pitch for what I was doing (similar in principle to what you'd get with omnis pulled well away from the walls). He raised an eyebrow and replied, "I'd like to challenge that", and pulled out a thumb drive. It contained a recording made in a concert hall he was familiar with. When it was over, I asked Andrew how we did. He said, "It passed. It's not a gimmick, it works. I could clearly hear the Concertgebouw hall."
I cannot dismiss this but I have not heard it. Will you be at AXPONA this year?
Further anecdotal evidence of this effect comes from the multitude of dipole speaker owners who hear "more of the recording" and "less of the room" when they pull their speakers five or six feet (or more) out into the room.
I've lived with dipoles for many years (Stax and Apogee), had them always at least 5 or 6 feet into the room and experimented more. Over those years, I have never heard anything like my first home experience with true multichannel even though it was with lossy compressed recordings.
'm not claiming that two-channel truly rivals good multichannel at its own game, which is creating an immersive experience. I do claim that, with the right choices and a suitable room (untreated hotel rooms theoretically included), two-channel can do a pretty good job of immersion, and I'll also claim that two-channel offers more good recordings to choose from.
I will reserve comment for the moment.
Kal, something I have not kept up with is, processors which derive multi-channel sound from a two-channel recording. How do those fit in?
Not well, imho.
 
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Gregadd

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Binaural with headphones. Nothing else comes close.
 

Duke LeJeune

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I cannot dismiss this but I have not heard it... I will reserve comment for the moment.

And that's the most I could possibly ask of you.

Will you be at AXPONA this year?

Unlikely, and even if so, we won't be showing a system with all the bells & whistles. However we are planning to do Capital Audio Fest this year.

I've lived with dipoles for many years (Stax and Apogee), had them always at least 5 or 6 feet into the room and experimented more. Over those years, I have never heard anything like my first home experience with true multichannel even though it was with lossy compressed recordings.

Just for the record, what I was doing in the room Andrew Quint visited includes things that haven't come up in this thread, including something that we're keeping under our hats for now. But it's still just two channels, presented a bit differently from normal.

[Regarding how processors do which derive multichannel from two channels] Not well, imho.

Bummer.
 

Gregadd

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Gregadd

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kach22i

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I find some experimental speakers fascinating.

2011
Klang Ultrasonic Speakers Emit Multi-Directional and Multi-Pitch Sound klang-100577_3_800-large.jpg klang-100577_5_800.jpeg klang-ultrasonic-speakers.jpeg
https://www.trendhunter.com/trends/klang-ultrasonic-speakers
Any music junkie will appreciate the Klang Ultrasonic Speakers, because in truth, no other sound system will have you feeling closer to the source.

Created by Adam Moller as an industrial design project for Bang & Olufsen, these brass beat busters have ultrasonic transmitters that pump tunes even above what the human ears can hear. The Klang Ultrasonic Speakers were also devised in such a way that the direction and spread of the sound signals can be customized, leaving the listener with the power to appreciate binaural bass.
 
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kach22i

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https://newatlas.com/greensound-technolog/16372/
Unlike traditional speakers that project sound in one direction, a sound generator in the base of the Greensound speakers vibrates the glass to project the sound from both sides. Different areas of the glass are responsible for producing different frequency sounds - the curved area at the top produces high frequency sounds, the middle produces mid-range sounds, while low frequencies are produced by the area at the bottom near the base. The use of glass also provides the opportunity for some nice color changing lighting to be built into the base.
 

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