Just change what you like to the sound you like. Voicing is personal, there is no right and wrong and there is no way to replicate the room or the pair of ears that the product was voiced with.
Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème
- Thread starter CKKeung
- Start date
Correct !
You should not use the SR black or SR blue With Taiko server.
Both are worst when used in extreme.
Had no chance to try the orange.
the only recommendation is to use SR blue when there is a need for more higher frequencies in the tonal balance, but in this case use them in amp, pre.amp or dac.
SR black is more neutral with solid mid region.
Thanks Kris,
I ordered the SR Orange for my SPEC amp. I had very nice bump with the SR Blue on my Simaudio amp, hence have decided to have a go with the Orange. Hope it turns out good, currently there is a Little Fuse in the SPEC and I must say, it sounds fantastic, but the itch is too much to ignore. LOL.
I agree, fuses are a way to tune the sound signature and are a very personal thing. If @Kris has 45 fuses to replace, that would be an expensive proposition with even a $20 fuse let alone a $200 fuse. If somehow, you prefer the inexpensive Schurter fuse over a much more expensive Synergistic Research fuse, then you've really struck gold.
I think just as important to Emile as SQ is reliability and he touched on this already. I can imagine the headache he would have if he had to deal with lots of support calls for Extremes that won't boot up due to a blown fuse and many audiophile fuses, especially the SR fuses, are prone to blowing which is why many (including myself) choose to slightly uprate their fuse (which opens up other issues). I received a new power supply some months ago and with this power supply, I did prefer the signature of an SR Blue fuse. Anyway, while turning on this power supply after having left it off for the weekend, as the capacitors had fully discharged, upon turning on the unit, there was a massive inrush of current that ended up blowing not just the Blue fuse in this PSU but 2 other Blue fuses, a Black fuse, and a Beeswax fuse in other components that were on the same circuit. Basically, a very expensive setback. What is interesting is that a preamp that I was testing that was using its stock "inexpensive" fuse was the only fuse that did not blow. Even if it had, obviously, it would be no big deal to replace a $2 fuse. Somehow, audiophile fuses are very fragile.
With that said, I have been testing the latest Orange fuse at @isquirrel's recommendation and with every component I have placed it in thus far, I have liked what I've heard and this has rarely been the case. As some have suggested, the Blue can sound a touch bright and the Beeswax can sound a touch too warm and even slow and so it ends up becoming a balancing act. The Orange, to my ears, is much more neutral. I hear excellent extension but nothing that is exaggerated and somehow, it very nicely balances performance (especially better detail layering) and musicality.
Some months ago, I purchased a large number of CenterStage2 footers manufactured by Critical Mass from @Steve Williams and while I have not yet tried the Panzerholz footers and Daiza platforms that Emile makes and sells, I have found these CS2 footers to be incredible, better than anything else I have tried thus far including the HRS Vortex and anything from Stillpoints. They are very neutral (meaning they are evenhanded in their noise reduction) resulting in very noticeably enhanced resolution but they also provide this immersive "creaminess" to the presentation that is very difficult to describe resulting in what I would consider to be an excellent balance between resolution and musicality. The Orange fuse reminds me of these footers and so undoubtedly, I will give the Orange a try once my Extreme arrives.
Here is another thing about audiophile fuses, especially the SR fuses, that leaves me scratching my head. According to SR, every time they come out with a new fuse, compared to their previous generation fuse, their new fuse is now supposedly so much better it will cause you to weep uncontrollably and to soil your pants. Yes, it's exaggerated marketing but somehow, there is truth to it and I always wonder how much more a fuse can be improved or is it really being improved? Is it possible that these audiophile fuses, as Emile has suggested, are losing performance over time so that when SR's latest fuse comes around, the new fuse seems to be a significant improvement when really, it's because the older fuse has lost performance? Perhaps, I should buy an Orange fuse and tuck it away and compare this against the Green fuse (or whatever SR wants to call their next fuse) whenever it is released in the next 12-18 months (that seems to be how often they're releasing new fuses).
I think just as important to Emile as SQ is reliability and he touched on this already. I can imagine the headache he would have if he had to deal with lots of support calls for Extremes that won't boot up due to a blown fuse and many audiophile fuses, especially the SR fuses, are prone to blowing which is why many (including myself) choose to slightly uprate their fuse (which opens up other issues). I received a new power supply some months ago and with this power supply, I did prefer the signature of an SR Blue fuse. Anyway, while turning on this power supply after having left it off for the weekend, as the capacitors had fully discharged, upon turning on the unit, there was a massive inrush of current that ended up blowing not just the Blue fuse in this PSU but 2 other Blue fuses, a Black fuse, and a Beeswax fuse in other components that were on the same circuit. Basically, a very expensive setback. What is interesting is that a preamp that I was testing that was using its stock "inexpensive" fuse was the only fuse that did not blow. Even if it had, obviously, it would be no big deal to replace a $2 fuse. Somehow, audiophile fuses are very fragile.
With that said, I have been testing the latest Orange fuse at @isquirrel's recommendation and with every component I have placed it in thus far, I have liked what I've heard and this has rarely been the case. As some have suggested, the Blue can sound a touch bright and the Beeswax can sound a touch too warm and even slow and so it ends up becoming a balancing act. The Orange, to my ears, is much more neutral. I hear excellent extension but nothing that is exaggerated and somehow, it very nicely balances performance (especially better detail layering) and musicality.
Some months ago, I purchased a large number of CenterStage2 footers manufactured by Critical Mass from @Steve Williams and while I have not yet tried the Panzerholz footers and Daiza platforms that Emile makes and sells, I have found these CS2 footers to be incredible, better than anything else I have tried thus far including the HRS Vortex and anything from Stillpoints. They are very neutral (meaning they are evenhanded in their noise reduction) resulting in very noticeably enhanced resolution but they also provide this immersive "creaminess" to the presentation that is very difficult to describe resulting in what I would consider to be an excellent balance between resolution and musicality. The Orange fuse reminds me of these footers and so undoubtedly, I will give the Orange a try once my Extreme arrives.
Here is another thing about audiophile fuses, especially the SR fuses, that leaves me scratching my head. According to SR, every time they come out with a new fuse, compared to their previous generation fuse, their new fuse is now supposedly so much better it will cause you to weep uncontrollably and to soil your pants. Yes, it's exaggerated marketing but somehow, there is truth to it and I always wonder how much more a fuse can be improved or is it really being improved? Is it possible that these audiophile fuses, as Emile has suggested, are losing performance over time so that when SR's latest fuse comes around, the new fuse seems to be a significant improvement when really, it's because the older fuse has lost performance? Perhaps, I should buy an Orange fuse and tuck it away and compare this against the Green fuse (or whatever SR wants to call their next fuse) whenever it is released in the next 12-18 months (that seems to be how often they're releasing new fuses).
If you do not power dow the system you might keep 100% performance of the fuse.
I did power down system every day in last 2 years with mainly SR blue s.
planning to buy the same rating new blue fuse and see if it is better than the 2 years old fuse ....
or maybe someone did that test already ?
I did power down system every day in last 2 years with mainly SR blue s.
planning to buy the same rating new blue fuse and see if it is better than the 2 years old fuse ....
or maybe someone did that test already ?
I think this is very true. In general, I don't power down my power supplies but as I do a lot of comparison testing, I sometimes have no choice.
Many years ago i ran a Naim/Linn system that had that magical ability to involve and draw the listener into the music. I returned from a holiday one year, switched on the system and the main fuse in the Naim 250 amp blew. I looked around in my ‘man-draw’, found a suitable slow blow fuse of the correct ampage and we were back up and running. It took me about a week to realise that all was not well. I heard no difference in the tonal balance of the system but the magic was gone....the system was no longer engaging to anything like the degree it had been. Given that the only change was the fuse i very sceptically called my dealer and arranged for hi m to send me a couple of replacements. The difference was instantaneous in that while nothing seemed to change tonally, my old highly engaging and enjoyable system was back. Since that time i always get a couple of ‘standard‘ fuses whenever i buy new gear and put them in an envelope with the name of the component and I never use anything but the OEM fuse.
Recently I discussed fuses with the manufacturer of a piece of kit I’d just bought and he reported that several fuses they’d evaluated enhanced certain qualities but robbed the system of some of its foot tapping drive....enough to refresh my prejudices against non-OEM fuses.
Recently I discussed fuses with the manufacturer of a piece of kit I’d just bought and he reported that several fuses they’d evaluated enhanced certain qualities but robbed the system of some of its foot tapping drive....enough to refresh my prejudices against non-OEM fuses.
Circling back for a moment, I set up a fiber-optic link between my network equipment and my not-Extreme Innuos Zenith server, using Emile’s recommended components.
Initially I just left the fiber coiled up and put the optical link in series with the existing 50’ of CAT 6 copper ethernet running under the floor from office to stereo rack. I could immediately hear a significant improvement in clarity and transparency, with no loss of body and bass power.
However, a friend who is also following this thread set up the same fiber link and removed his copper ethernet. He heard the same improvements, but also a hardness with the fiber in his system. So today, rather than crawl under the house and permanently install the fiber in place of my copper, I tried another experiment and laid out the fiber around the edge of the floor and removed the long run of copper from my system. Not only did I hear the same hardness, quite a bit of the liquidity and relaxed clarity that I enjoy about my stereo disappeared as well.
Luckily, I had ordered four -5 db optical attenuators referenced a bit later in this thread, so I inserted a pair at each end of the fiber. Voila! Hardness gone; clarity, transparency and that liquidity all back in spades. Evidently, in an optical system designed to transit up to 80 km but only using about 20 m of fiber, attenuators are necessary to avoid saturating and driving into distortion the optical receivers. At least, that’s what I hear.
All said and done, a very significant improvement overall to the sound quality and musical enjoyment of my digital playback.
And, I’m ready now for that Extreme in my future. Thanks to Emile and all who posted information about the optical networking components.
Steve Z
Initially I just left the fiber coiled up and put the optical link in series with the existing 50’ of CAT 6 copper ethernet running under the floor from office to stereo rack. I could immediately hear a significant improvement in clarity and transparency, with no loss of body and bass power.
However, a friend who is also following this thread set up the same fiber link and removed his copper ethernet. He heard the same improvements, but also a hardness with the fiber in his system. So today, rather than crawl under the house and permanently install the fiber in place of my copper, I tried another experiment and laid out the fiber around the edge of the floor and removed the long run of copper from my system. Not only did I hear the same hardness, quite a bit of the liquidity and relaxed clarity that I enjoy about my stereo disappeared as well.
Luckily, I had ordered four -5 db optical attenuators referenced a bit later in this thread, so I inserted a pair at each end of the fiber. Voila! Hardness gone; clarity, transparency and that liquidity all back in spades. Evidently, in an optical system designed to transit up to 80 km but only using about 20 m of fiber, attenuators are necessary to avoid saturating and driving into distortion the optical receivers. At least, that’s what I hear.
All said and done, a very significant improvement overall to the sound quality and musical enjoyment of my digital playback.
And, I’m ready now for that Extreme in my future. Thanks to Emile and all who posted information about the optical networking components.
Steve Z
Last edited:
Very interesting, so it seems coiling the fibre has a significant attenuation effect. Not so surprising, when one thinks about it.
Here is a link to a page on signal attenuation in optical fibers, and cable bend is mentioned as a factor https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/suppo...ioning-platform-mspp/27042-max-att-27042.html
thanks for a great post !
Last edited:
Hi Steve,
Question, did you use the Startech FMC on both sides? If yes, on the server side, did you use it with the supplied SMPS?
Thanks,
Emile
Everything degrades under stress, powering on a power supply with a large toroidal transformer and capacitor bank produces two significant current peaks, this can easily go over 100A (stress), the toroidal a very steep initial spike, subsequently the capacitor bank draws high current over a longer time period while charging, can be as high as 50A. There are fuses specifically designed to deal with toroidal transformer current surges, those unfortunately have an higher then normal unfavourable effect on sound quality. So it is good practice to soft start this type of power supply to 1) reduce the transformer current peak, 2) reduce the capacitor bank initial charging current, 3) reduce stress on the fuse, 4) reduce stress on the capacitor bank, prolonging life on all these components. Soft starting eliminates the transformer initial surge and cuts the magnitude of capacitor charging current in half in exchange for doubling the charging time. Another side effect is that capacitor charging stress affects sound quality for a considerable time after powering on the supply, soft starting reduces this "warm up" time.
It is these peaks which are the problem why some audiophile fuses can deteriorate early resulting in a lifeless undynamic sound. They can blow after just a few power cycles. If we do not soft start these type of power supplies even very rugged fuses only survive a few power cycles and they audibly deteriorate each power on cycle. We have in fact tested and verified this and it was part of the selection process for this fuse, it will have a healthy long life and can even handle more extreme surges which can happen during power grid anomalies. Obviously we are not going to test all the audiophile fuse variations out there.
It is important to be aware that audiophile fuses can be deliberately overrated (lower resistance, meaning lower heating, lower distortion, which can actually sound better), some are not but blow too fast causing audiophiles to use a larger value, some audiophiles deliberately use larger values as that can sound better, this is actually rather dangerous and can cause significant damage during situations where a normal fuse would blow, it can even cause a real fire as if the fuse not blows while the power supply is delivering more current then what it was designed for, it will keep heating up till it finally fails, or till something reaches ignition temperature. The fuse also protects against power grid anomalies like repetitive voltage swings, brownouts etc, you just don't know what's going on when you change the fuse to a different type / rating.
With all that said, the mentioned SR fuses have been around for a long time and have a good reputation, others may just be fine too, but you cannot be really sure without detailed datasheets, understandably as it may reveal something they don't want to be public domain knowledge. You just have to put your trust in the manufacturer there.
Just a quick question, seeing that Fibre/Optical links are being used / discussed--
Anyone still use the Theta Opti-goo on the connections?
Just curious-or anything else similar
BruceD
Bruce, if that is anything like the Aural Symphonics Io-gel I used ages ago on ST glass lines then it should be worthwhile. I found it to reduce grain and better centre / solidify the sound. Much cheaper too.
I’m the friend Steve mentioned. He is using the Startech FMCs on both sides. And I’m pretty sure he said he was powering the server side one with a JS-2 and then using a Jameco on the other side.
In my case, I’m using the EtherRegen on the server side and the Startech FMC on the other - both with their respective stock SMPS.
There was something very wonderful about going from copper to fiber. I had to flip back to copper though as the highs had a tendency to be too hot.
I ordered some attenuators that won’t be here until Thursday. I hope they do the trick. I’m using a short length of fiber - only 8m.
Once I get this sorted out I will look to improve the power supplies.
Yes found this-- I think it is from the same cloth!--just don't lick your fingers
Optigue
Last April, while I was at the Stereophile High End Show in LA, Armando Martinez (of Laser Illusions fame), who said he worked with Theta, shoved a couple of very small plastic boxes into my hands. He said they contained a gel that, when placed on the ends of AT&T optical connectors, would enhance the transfer of the digital signal across the small air gaps between the CD drive, cable, and D/A convertor. Since high-end audio does not exactly lack weirdness and bizarre products, I dismissed the whole thing as another case of sonic witchcraft.
When I got home, I examined the contents of the two small boxes, and found, to my amazement and amusement, a thick, clear gel. According to the instructions, the user is supposed to dip the two male ends (receiving and terminating) of the AT&T cable into this stuff before inserting into the receptacles of the CD drive and D/A convertor. Somehow, the whole idea seems a bit kinky. The real question is, does it work?
Yes. Although the difference may not blow you away, it clearly produces a more open, yet smoother quality, without sacrificing any clarity (which is actually improved). According to Armando, who does indeed work with Theta, and is quite an expert in laser technology (see RH's review of the Laser Illusions Spatial Filter in the June 1992 Stereophile), this stuff reduces the reflections that occur between the various discontinuous fiber optics within the digital bitstream chain. Theta sells Optigue (pronounced Opti-goo) for about fifty bucks a container. Buy some. But please, don't try to use K-Y jelly, Vaseline, or any apparently similar substance as a more cost-effective substitute; the refractive index of Optigue is critical to its effect. In addition, be careful handling it: Optigue contains small amounts of arsenic, which just might cause problems when applied to certain parts of the human anatomy.
BruceD
I'm sure there's a bundle more industrial options but here are two
- www.luxlink.com/products/og-1052.htm
- http://siliconesolutions.com/optical-coupling-gels.html
- www.luxlink.com/products/og-1052.htm
- http://siliconesolutions.com/optical-coupling-gels.html
Did that for my Emm Labs transport and DAC 10 years ago.
It works very well I must say BUT
The problem starts when your gel / sylicone starts to loose its quality with time.
How you want to clean it ?
how to apply new one ?
There might be much better solutions now than 10 years ago, so will need to try again probably.
The worst case scenario is to replace SFPs for new.
You are very welcome.
I am not sure the lack of edge I heard on the first trial was from coiling the fiber. I thought it was likely that the 50’ of copper I still had in series with the second FMC, between FMC and streamer, was either masking or softening the sound I initially heard. But I’m just learning as I go, and I wasn’t aware of the attenuating effects of coiling fiber. Makes sense though, now that you explain it.
Removing the 50’ of copper, and admittedly, uncoiling a fair amount of the fiber to string it over to the equipment rack in the next room, revealed a hardness to the sound.
But adding the -5dB optical attenuators at each end of the fiber definitely tamed the hardness or edge and restored the expansive, liquid 3D sound.
Steve Z
Hello Emile,
Yes, with my Innuos Zenith streamer I have to use an FMC at both ends — the Zenith only has standard RJ-45 ethernet connections.
I’m using an Uptone Audio JS-2 linear power supply on the server side, and an inexpensive regulated linear wall-wart power supply from Jameco on the NAS/modem end in the next room.
Steve
