Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Blackmorec]

If you think improving your network as I’ve suggested makes your system hyper-detailed and analytical, think again. In fact, the usual hi-fi terms don’t fit at all well with the type of gains you’ll hear.

What does happen....
the system becomes more emotional in that the music generates a stronger emotional response...you’ll find yourself becoming tearful at the sheer beauty or bouncing out of your chair at the rhythmic intensity. You’ll find your whole body getting involved...playing air guitar or drums, conducting the orchestra...... limbs moving in time to the music, unable to resist.
The system, reveals previously hidden meaning and inflections in the way notes are shaped and played, more clearly communicating the sheer brilliance of artists like Heifetz, Menuhin, Petrucciani, Burrell.
There’s more saturation of textures and colours, more clearly defined note shape, from the initial, highly localised percussive pluck, hammer strike, rosinous bow on string to the blooming of the note in its acoustic space, followed by the gradual decay and dying away of the note into infinite space and inky black silence.....the dynamic structure of the music that makes it sound genuine, alive, real.
There’s more information about the persons making the music, so it sounds more human and lifelike. There’s a greater feeling of notes being produced by 3 dimensional horns, resonating guitar or violin bodies. There’s a greater organic naturalness along with huge complexity as notes and their harmonics combine and resonate to create timbral identity.
Venue space and ambience have a cohesiveness, a presence and texture
The interplay of rhythms between musicians takes on a greater significance and produces tremendous rhythmic drive and propulsion that is hugely engaging.
The music grabs your attention, obliterating wandering and random thoughts as it draws you into its rhythmical web and tonal beauty.
You’ll start to appreciate more the subtlety of phrasing and timing, the artists‘ ‘feel‘ for their music. You’ll naturally listen with your eyes closed as the contradiction between the space you hear and the room you see is simply too great.
If these aren’t the kind of sound quality improvements you’re looking for, then certainly don’t bother. For me, its what I’ve been striving for for over 40 years of being involved with the hobby of music reproduction. Listening sessions that leave me feeling refreshed, invigorated, wonderous and frankly utterly amazed that those 16 bit 44.1 KHz recordings contain so much information that has remained more or less hidden or perhaps I should say ‘buried’ these past 40-50 years.

 

[justubes]

Sorry, i may have lost you.

What would your suggestion be again please?

 

[Blackmorec]

Oh dear, of your 6 crucial elements, I am missing.........6

i have
Switching power supplies on all modems, routers and switches. Some are on cupboards, some on lamp tables, some on the floor. My best switch costs a hefty $15 or so. Cabling is all lowest quality Cat 5E. They are plugged into an assortment of plugs, most of which have at least 10-20 buzzing LEDs on the same circuit and none are on any kind of vibration control (what kind of vibration control are we talking about? surely not hi Fi racks for our routers and switches?).

This what I use under modem, router and LPSs . Atacama Evoque compact

Where only 1 unit is present I just use the base layer. looks perfectly presentable and tucks away easily. They are all available separately

http://mediacdn.shopatron.com/media...28b97f7f777d2148a4b907845094f1.jpg?1576709338

 

[howiebrou]

This what I use under modem, router and LPSs . Atacama Evoque compact

Where only 1 unit is present I just use the base layer. looks perfectly presentable and tucks away easily. They are all available separately

http://mediacdn.shopatron.com/media...28b97f7f777d2148a4b907845094f1.jpg?1576709338View attachment 60719

Very nice. Got an actual photo to share??

So i have a question.
1.My modem with fibre comes into the house in one side room.
2. A wi fi router connects to that modem in the side room.
3. From that router i have another router connected through LAN cables in the wall, into the living room right next to the hi fi rack where a streamer would go. Currently my Meridian Sooloos connects to this 2nd router.
4. I intend to connect this 2nd router to a new streamer, possibly through a switch.

Question; Should i delete this 2nd router so that there is no router next to the streamer and connect a long Cat 7/8 cable from the first router directly to the streamer or is the 2nd router still acceptable? I have these two routers to provide better wifi coverage in the house.

 

[steve williams]

the system becomes more emotional in that the music generates a stronger emotional response...you’ll find yourself becoming tearful at the sheer beauty or bouncing out of your chair at the rhythmic intensity. You’ll find your whole body getting involved...playing air guitar or drums, conducting the orchestra...... limbs moving in time to the music, unable to resist.

So only if one does all 6 things you suggest will one ever become or feel emotional attachment to the music

I went in a completely different direction, using none of your recommendations (I use only 3 things of my own choice) and you literally have to extract me from my room every day as my toes are tapping and I get goosebumps listening to the presentation I have.


All roads lead to Rome and there are many ways to get there. At the moment I have zero interest in any of these tweaks. I guess I am more than thrilled with my tweaks

 

[matthias]

The Sotm switches are in the process of clearing customs right now, the Ether Regen and Telegartner M12 switches are already here. My intention is to make my own assessment of how all of these perform, though not on an absolute level perhaps, but more on my perspective on how to use them. For example I'm pretty sure the way I am using the Telegartner M12 now is not the way it would typically be used.

Hi Emile,
I have very good experiences with WiFI and I think it makes sense before spending thousands on switches etc. to try the very best WiFi devices with the Extreme.
In a former post you mentioned the Netgear Orbi working nicely with the Extreme.
Now there is a new generation of these devices released working according the new WiFi 6 standard (802.11ax).
Please, can you include these in your assessment?
Thank you

Matt

 

[steve williams]

Matt

i use Orbi. It’s fantastic. In fact my main Orbi router is on the main floor. I use Orbi satellites throughout the house but I have an Orbi satellite in my sound room which is plugged into the wall. It has several Ethernet outputs. I use one and run a very good Ethernet cable 8 meters to the Extreme. Sounds fantastic. Emile has heard it. No noise or any audible aberrations. I have no need for switches in my room

 

[matthias]

i use Orbi. It’s fantastic. In fact my main Orbi router is on the main floor. I use Orbi satellites throughout the house but I have an Orbi satellite in my sound room which is plugged into the wall. It has several Ethernet outputs. I use one and run a very good Ethernet cable 8 meters to the Extreme. Sounds fantastic. Emile has heard it. No noise or any audible aberrations. I have no need for switches in my room

Steve,
thanks for sharing.
This mirrors exactly my experiences with well implemented WiFi.
Do you use the stock power supplies with your Orbi?

Matt

 

[steve williams]

Steve,
thanks for sharing.
This mirrors exactly my experiences with well implemented WiFi.
Do you use the stock power supplies with your Orbi?

Matt

Matt

Yes I do So far I have had no reason to consider LPS

 

[kennyb123]

i use Orbi. It’s fantastic. In fact my main Orbi router is on the main floor. I use Orbi satellites throughout the house but I have an Orbi satellite in my sound room which is plugged into the wall. It has several Ethernet outputs. I use one and run a very good Ethernet cable 8 meters to the Extreme. Sounds fantastic. Emile has heard it. No noise or any audible aberrations. I have no need for switches in my room

It's a switch built into the Orbi that is providing the additional ethernet outputs. I can't imagine it containing anything other than a cheap clock. I have no doubt everything sounds wonderful. But if you were to insert a better switch between the Orbi and your Extreme, you may hear a nice increase in goodness.

 

[steve williams]

My only other thought and it’s only conjecture is that I am on solar power and I have no idea if that is a factor.

 

[steve williams]

It's a switch built into the Orbi that is providing the additional ethernet outputs. I can't imagine it containing anything other than a cheap clock. I have no doubt everything sounds wonderful. But if you were to insert a better switch between the Orbi and your Extreme, you may hear a nice increased in goodness.

You might be right Kenny. I’m a very slow learner.

 

[steve williams]

It's a switch built into the Orbi that is providing the additional ethernet outputs. I can't imagine it containing anything other than a cheap clock. I have no doubt everything sounds wonderful. But if you were to insert a better switch between the Orbi and your Extreme, you may hear a nice increase in goodness.

Kenny

this reminds me of the ongoing threads regarding the use of a $5.50 CC PC

so I might say to you have you tried it with the cheap clock

 

[matthias]

It's a switch built into the Orbi that is providing the additional ethernet outputs. I can't imagine it containing anything other than a cheap clock. I have no doubt everything sounds wonderful. But if you were to insert a better switch between the Orbi and your Extreme, you may hear a nice increase in goodness.

Two interesting posts from the same author on AS regarding Orbi and SotM switch:

"I thought I'd share my experience here. I have been listening to the SoTM switch for the past 24 hours. I know they say 50 hour burn in but here are my impressions:
1. My upstream chain consists of ISP Modem -> CAT 5e Cable. -> Netgear Orbi Router -> Wireless -> Netgear Satellite -> SoTM CAT 7 cable -> SoTM Switch (powered by Sps-500) -> Direcstream DAC
2. I have played around with going direct from the Satellite -> DAC vs Satellite -> Switch ->DAC
Ive got to say that for me the biggest difference was the SoTM Cat & cable. I don't have a WHOA moment with the SoTM switch in my system. This could very well be the sps-500 or the fact that I don't have the EQVOX caps....not sure.
Either way - I am going back and forth with and without switch...and so far I think its a close call."


"Dumped the SoTM switch- no difference in SQ in my system. I think this is a testament to the Netgear Orbi wifi mesh at blazing speeds 1gbps!
What made a difference was the SoTM dBCL CAT 7."


https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/39032-sotm-snh-10g-sotm’s-first-network-switch/page/5/?tab=comments#comment-991560
https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/39032-sotm-snh-10g-sotm’s-first-network-switch/page/6/?tab=comments#comment-992385

Matt

 

[kennyb123]

Kenny

this reminds me of the ongoing threads regarding the use of a $5.50 CC PC

so I might say to you have you tried it with the cheap clock

I own a Synology router. Synology and Orbi are based on the same Qualcomm chipset. I have no idea what that means as far as the clocks that govern their respective switches. I will say though that the EtherRegen used right before my Innuos streamer brought musically-important improvements.

Having said that, every situation is different and the only way to see if you'd get an improvement is to try it for yourself. You are clearly very pleased with your current setup. I wouldn't sweat it then.

 

[Kingsrule]

Tried the 5db reducers on fiber run to Extreme which is 2m from switch ......they dumbed down everything.

 

[kennyb123]

Tried the 5db reducers on fiber run to Extreme which is 2m from switch ......they dumbed down everything.

@oldmustang had just shared this with me:

https://www.controlglobal.com/assets/14WPpdf/140331-BB-FiberOpticCommandments.pdf

See Commandment #3.

I heard evidence of over-saturation without attenuators. At such a short length, I would think that the receiver should be over-saturating. Why it was audible in my case, I do not know.

Also there could be variations among the attenuators used. Earlier in this thread a link was posted to an APC attenuator. APC (green) should not be combined with UPC (blue) connectors. See Commandment #8 or https://www.belden.com/blog/data-centers/upc-or-apc

 

[Blackmorec]

I compared a direct Ethernet connection using 10m of Synergistic Research Active SE to wi-fi, using the TP Link RE650 in 5GHz receive mode, with ethernet from there to the server and the wi-fi was substantially better.
I then modified the RE650 by removing the wall plug and the internal, cheap as chips SMPS, mounted it on an anti-vibration wall mount (to retain the antennae orientation), with a Sean Jacobs DC3 LPS hooked directly to the RE650’s main circuit board. The results with the standard RE650 were wonderful, with no anomalies, but the modifications took it to an altogether different level. With the stock RE650 you could clearly hear all the venue acoustics and ambience.....after the mods the music sounded like it was being played in the venue.
Before the mods music sounded like it was made by a guitar, a violin, a trumpet.....after the mods it sounded like those instruments were making the music. What’s the difference? In the former the notes carry all of the instrument’s timbre and harmonics and can be clearly identified as coming from a particular instrument. In the latter you hear the instrument making the sounds. Big difference in terms of how ‘real’ and ‘present’ music sounds.
Add a new component that requires running in and the music falls back into its ‘realistic imitation’ mode....still great, but nothing like as stunning.
None of this rocket science. All that’s happening is that we’re avoiding contamination with EMI, RFI and jitter. Obviously while these things can be removed to some extent, performance is way better when the contamination is avoided in the first place.

 

[kennyb123]

All that’s happening is that we’re avoiding contamination with EMI, RFI and jitter. Obviously while these things can be removed to some extent, performance is way better when the contamination is avoided in the first place.

I don't doubt your listening observations, but I don't believe the above explains it. I am not so sure wifi removes all that. Wifi galvanically isolates your server from the rest of your network, but it doesn't galvanically isolate your server from the router and the noise it is generating. The signal leaving your router may very well have been contaminated with EMI and RF by the router itself - as the router itself is an RF generator.

And then there's the clock. The audiophile switches that are all the talk now have been making a very strong case that the clock can have a significant impact on sound quality. Consumer grade clocks are bad for audio - and to date there are no wifi solutions that feature better clocks that I know of. (I'm really hoping John Swenson soon publishes the white paper explaining the harm that consumer grade clocks do to sound quality.)

I really don't have the answer - all of the above is speculation. What I do know is that the best low level detail I've heard from my system came when using a span of optical to galvanically isolate my server from the rest of my network. Optical can have its own problems though, but I'm hoping the use of optical along with FMCs that feature improved clocking (like the EtherRegen or the SOtM switch) provide the best chance so far to bring out the best it has to offer.

 

[Blackmorec]

I don't doubt your listening observations, but I don't believe the above explains it. I am not so sure wifi removes all that. Wifi galvanically isolates your server from the rest of your network, but it doesn't galvanically isolate your server from the router and the noise it is generating. The signal leaving your router may very well have been contaminated with EMI and RF by the router itself - as the router itself is an RF generator.

And then there's the clock. The audiophile switches that are all the talk now have been making a very strong case that the clock can have a significant impact on sound quality. Consumer grade clocks are bad for audio - and to date there are no wifi solutions that feature better clocks that I know of. (I'm really hoping John Swenson soon publishes the white paper explaining the harm that consumer grade clocks do to sound quality.)

I really don't have the answer - all of the above is speculation. What I do know is that the best low level detail I've heard from my system came when using a span of optical to galvanically isolate my server from the rest of my network. Optical can have its own problems though, but I'm hoping the use of optical along with FMCs that feature improved clocking (like the EtherRegen or the SOtM switch) provide the best chance so far to bring out the best it has to offer.

Hi there, thanks for the interest in my post. Wi-fi alone certainly does not provide ALL the answers and it is not responsible for all the improvements I’ve noted. To achieve those, one needs to pay attention to many other aspects. but wi-fi does galvanically isolate the server from the rest of the network and by definition, from the router. Both analog signals and data streams are permanently damaged by lost information, which can never be recovered. However, unlike analog, contamination can be removed from digital signals which can be ‘reconditioned‘ and reconstructed to remove EMI, RFI and Jitter.
What your router has no electrical connection to your streamer/server, so there’s no route by which EMI can be conducted between the two; the same is true for optical. But what can and does happen is that the router can generate jitter as a function of its clock and power supply. Adding decent cables and LPS to a router have the following effects....the cable cuts down the amount of radiated EMI entering the router and the power supply cuts down on both internally generated EMI and jitter generated by the internal clock and its power supply. Placing the router on an anti-vibration mounting also helps to cut down jitter, allowing a more accurately timed signal to be transmitted. In my system the wi-fi signal is picked up by a heavily modified TPLink RE650. The Link is set-up to switch off polling, all 2.4GHz activity and all LEDs. Its internal power supply is replaced by an LPS, connected by JSSG screened DC cable. the wall plug is removed and the unit is mounted on an anti-vibration wall mount. This has the effect of isolating the unit from wall vibrations, removing SMPS generated noise, removing the AC to DC conversion with all its noise and vibration and providing the electronics with a very low noise, low ripple, low impedance, robust DC supply...so less radiated and conducted EMI and RFI and again much less jitter. Based on low cost consumer grade electronics, the signal generated by the RE650 is routed for further processing along a highly screened, high quality ethernet cable to an AQ Vox SE network switch, which is again wall mounted to avoid vibration and provided with DC from an LPS, which is itself placed on an anti-vibration platform. This switch takes the signal from the RE650 and further refines and retimes it before passing it via another high quality ethernet cable to the server. The entire chain is designed to remove EMI, RFI and jitter from the data stream while protecting the cleaned up and retimed stream from further contamination or degredation. To achieve these goals, high quality power supplies, highly screened cables and anti-vibration measures are employed throughout. The result, which I have documented, is a sound quality, purity, dimensionality and believability which I personally have never even managed to approach in previous systems and which i don’t believe I‘ve heard at trade shows or dealer demonstrations. So as you can see from the above, wi-fi is only part of several measures employed to ensure a low noise, low jitter bit stream.