Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[spiritofmusic]

You really should have stayed analog, Barry. We're always friendly and convivial, unlike the computer geek guys who speak a foreign language.
I'm off to the bar, what are you having?

 

[Malcng]

The easiest way IMO is to just stop using Roon. Most of these issues will then disappear. All of us unanimously agree that the SQ of XDMS trumps Roon. So why use Roon

I imagine that you may use your Extreme in a similar manner as someone might use a CD transport and, in that context, your comments make absolute sense - SQ trumps all. But you are overlooking what is, to me, the most important aspect of Roon which is its ability to play music through a whole variety of different music devices all round the house using the same proficient and easy to use control software. I can only assume that you have not had to patiently explain (over and over) to a frustrated spouse why she has to use different apps in each room and which app in which room is the right one to choose?

Since getting my Extreme, I have been totally satisfied with the SQ improvements that I have been able to achieve whilst using Roon and that was my only objective back when I made the purchase. I knew nothing of XDMS back then. Any SQ improvements derived from XDMS will of course be a bonus but will also bring along a number of usability complications - unless I buy another Roon core to serve the rest of the house and leave Extreme on XDMS for the main system but, even at that, I would lose the unexpected but greatly appreciated SQ improvements that Extreme gives me all around the house through various different devices.

Whilst I can understand your point of view as it applies to you, I sincerely hope that it is not one shared by Taiko themselves.

 

[dminches]

Why am I not getting the point of this Taiko frenzy? You pay 30 grand fur a server that is unable to stream Qobuz properly (something that a $1k Mac mini would probably do effortlessly). Does this bother anyone on this rather incredibly long thread? Or is the mere fact of ownership transcend such pedestrian concerns that the said product should actually work?

Incidentally, as someone who has spent his entire life in high end computer science, Taiko’s software glitches don’t surprise me at all. You can gilt edge the hardware all you like. It’s the software reliability that’s the tough nut to crack. Roon went through many iterations to get a measure of stability. As a sixty something who first used a web browser 30+ years ago called Netscape (anyone remember that?), it would crash every 5 minutes. I wish Taiko the best of luck, but much larger companies have been unable to crack this problem (I own a Sony media server, and its software is simply awful). Taiko is a really small company. Producing reliable streaming software will take an enormous amount of resources, as Roon has discovered.

One can run Roon on their Extreme without glitches so to say that it is unable to stream Qobuz is inaccurate.

Taiko is in the process of developing software which many feel already sounds eons better than Roon (me being one of them). They have generously allowed users to try out the alpha, not even beta, version and have even opened up a separate discussion group to support people who are using it. Honestly, I can't think of another company that has gone this route.

However, there are many who have decided to wait until XDMS is finished before they try it. Those people can run Roon without any issues.

We wouldn't even know about Taiko's "software glitches" if they had just waited until the product was finished. I, for one, am glad they didn't.

 

[EuroDriver]

So, about easily switching from XDMS and Roon... Is it as simple as going into Task Manager and switching off both xdms-server and xdms-player and switching on TaikoRoon and then restarting from the XDMS app? Are there any other steps needed to get Roon up and playing again? I'm a Mac guy and have been worried I would foul something up so have not yet tried the switch between the two but would like to...and also be able to get back to XDMS when I want to.

The switching between Roon and XDMS, will be easliy carried out via this Screen

 

[EuroDriver]

Sure, Roon with any well designed hardware platform will work well, I expect. I use the Lampizator server, but the first thing I did was install the Roon Rock Linux server on it (I was not surprised at all that Lampi’s own software was non-functional when I tried to use it). The world runs on Linux. It’s the most stable OS that’s also free (the two are not an accidental coincidence).

To reiterate my point. It’s not the hardware I’m talking about. It’s the software. Clearly, Taiko has gilt edged the hardware. Great. But what about the software? I take it they are trying to roll their own. I wish them the best of luck. All the gilt-edged hardware in the world at the end of the day means little to produce solid reliable software. Clearly, folks on this thread are finding that out. That’s what I was commenting on.

Let me put It another way. The pioneer in the audio streaming world, long before Roon, was Squuezebox. They put out an amazing lineup of forward thinking products (e.g., the Transporter) that was miles ahead of others. Their secret to success was making it open and based on Linux. A huge community sprung up to find bugs and fix them. A huge number of third party apps came out of Squeeze software. Enter Sony. They made hugely better hardware, e.g., HAP-Z1ES media server. Their software was proprietary and a joke. If you tried to upload your library of albums, what would take Squeeze an hour or so could take several days on the Sony (I know because I went through that experience). Their hardware was great. Their software was awful.

So, I’m only referring to Taiko’s recent efforts at software streaming, not their hardware and Roon integration. It’s very very hard to get reliable streaming done right. It takes enormous resources. It’s much harder than building gilt edged hardware.

The power resource that we have on the Taiko Software build out is the Alpha Tester Group.

- It was the Australian Alpha testers who ferreted out the Oz bug which were were then able to crush in less than a week

- the latest example is earlier this week when we had a Alpha tester describe misbehavior which were unable to replicate but that then highligted a weakness which could lead to bad behavior

Software is only as good as the testing, the patient, talented and inquistive Alpha Testors group is delivering big time for all of us

 

[dminches]

The power resource that we have on the Taiko Software build out is the Alpha Tester Group.

- It was the Australian Alpha testers who ferreted out the Oz bug which were were then able to crush in less than a week

- the latest example is earlier this week when we had a Alpha tester describe misbehavior which were unable to replicate but that then highligted a weakness which could lead to bad behavior

Software is only as good as the testing, the patient, talented and inquistive Alpha Testors group is delivering big time

Not to sound like a geek but it has been a lot of fun.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

However, there are many who have decided to wait until XDMS is finished before they try it. Those people can run Roon without any issues.

...hey, you can even just continue with TAS if you're old-school Taiko. I think the search (not Taiko design) sucks, but otherwise, TAS software has always streamed without issue, and sounds excellent. And I don't mess around with Roon. Period.

As a fella with software product dev management since circa '95, I'm denying myself the pleasure of QA testing XDMS so I don't induce PTSD trauma flashbacks. I am waiting until things settle out a bit more, but I don't feel starved for sound quality, that's for sure. OK...carry on...

 

[John T]

The power resource that we have on the Taiko Software build out is the Alpha Tester Group.

- It was the Australian Alpha testers who ferreted out the Oz bug which were were then able to crush in less than a week

- the latest example is earlier this week when we had a Alpha tester describe misbehavior which were unable to replicate but that then highligted a weakness which could lead to bad behavior

Software is only as good as the testing, the patient, talented and inquistive Alpha Testors group is delivering big time for all of us

Fascinating stuff even for a computer Neanderthal such as myself. As David explained no, one is forcing anyone to Alpha Test XDMS. Alpha testing is the driving force to polish and fix issues. What more do you want Taiko to do? I'm using Roon and sometimes TAS. Everything has been upfront from the get go. If you want to delve in, do it, if not don't. Edward on a personal note fiber is in!!! I'll drop a message when Horizon arrives, got tracking # this morning...John

 

[John T]

...hey, you can even just continue with TAS if you're old-school Taiko. I think the search (not Taiko design) sucks, but otherwise, TAS software has always streamed without issue, and sounds excellent. And I don't mess around with Roon. Period.

As a fella with software product dev management since circa '95, I'm denying myself the pleasure of QA testing XDMS so I don't induce PTSD trauma flashbacks. I am waiting until things settle out a bit more, but I don't feel starved for sound quality, that's for sure. OK...carry on...

Well Said...

 

[Malcng]

I'm denying myself the pleasure of QA testing XDMS so I don't induce PTSD trauma flashbacks. I am waiting until things settle out a bit more, but I don't feel starved for sound quality, that's for sure. OK...carry on...

…..hey, me too.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...I actually understand where @godofwealth is coming from re: his comments. Typically, buying such an expensive product, you would expect everything to be near-perfect. In fact, you would demand it as part of the purchase criteria.

However, this Taiko Extreme dev model has been a bit different. We knew from the beginning that home-dev software was aspirational, but there were other options until the pies came out of the oven.

Frankly, I had hoped we would have been on our second slice of pie by now, and I'm sure no one wants that more than Team Taiko. But, nothing has been hidden; the on-going nature of the product maturation has been out there for all to see...customers, potential customers, and naysayers alike. Everyone will need to make their own call on what that all means to them.

 

[wil]

Why am I not getting the point of this Taiko frenzy? You pay 30 grand fur a server that is unable to stream Qobuz properly (something that a $1k Mac mini would probably do effortlessly). Does this bother anyone on this rather incredibly long thread? Or is the mere fact of ownership transcend such pedestrian concerns that the said product should actually work?

Incidentally, as someone who has spent his entire life in high end computer science, Taiko’s software glitches don’t surprise me at all. You can gilt edge the hardware all you like. It’s the software reliability that’s the tough nut to crack. Roon went through many iterations to get a measure of stability. As a sixty something who first used a web browser 30+ years ago called Netscape (anyone remember that?), it would crash every 5 minutes. I wish Taiko the best of luck, but much larger companies have been unable to crack this problem (I own a Sony media server, and its software is simply awful). Taiko is a really small company. Producing reliable streaming software will take an enormous amount of resources, as Roon has discovered.

For the record, the Streaming drop outs don’t have anything to do with the XDMS software— as far as I understand. The Aggregator that crashed is an independent entity.

Xdms is in it’s infancy and yet, from my experience, it’s already much more stable than TAS!!

And any glitches that occur, just switch back to Roon until they are quickly dealt with. No Problemo!

 

[dminches]

...I actually understand where @godofwealth is coming from re: his comments. Typically, buying such an expensive product, you would expect everything to be near-perfect. In fact, you would demand it as part of the purchase criteria.

That's the point, it is near perfect with Roon. I could be mistaken but I don't think Taiko discusses software other than Roon when selling the Extreme. They really could have just stopped there. XDMS is a huge bonus which is beyond the Extreme sale.

If I am wrong about this I am all ears.

 

[EuroDriver]

iPad v (9) is now in TestFlight

MAC, and Windows Desktop Control Apps are posted in Discord

Android apk is in Discord as well

Alpha 2 Patch is stable, and availble in Discord as well

 

[2ndLiner]

Sure, Roon with any well designed hardware platform will work well, I expect. I use the Lampizator server, but the first thing I did was install the Roon Rock Linux server on it (I was not surprised at all that Lampi’s own software was non-functional when I tried to use it). The world runs on Linux. It’s the most stable OS that’s also free (the two are not an accidental coincidence).

To reiterate my point. It’s not the hardware I’m talking about. It’s the software. Clearly, Taiko has gilt edged the hardware. Great. But what about the software? I take it they are trying to roll their own. I wish them the best of luck. All the gilt-edged hardware in the world at the end of the day means little to produce solid reliable software. Clearly, folks on this thread are finding that out. That’s what I was commenting on.

Let me put It another way. The pioneer in the audio streaming world, long before Roon, was Squuezebox. They put out an amazing lineup of forward thinking products (e.g., the Transporter) that was miles ahead of others. Their secret to success was making it open and based on Linux. A huge community sprung up to find bugs and fix them. A huge number of third party apps came out of Squeeze software. Enter Sony. They made hugely better hardware, e.g., HAP-Z1ES media server. Their software was proprietary and a joke. If you tried to upload your library of albums, what would take Squeeze an hour or so could take several days on the Sony (I know because I went through that experience). Their hardware was great. Their software was awful.

So, I’m only referring to Taiko’s recent efforts at software streaming, not their hardware and Roon integration. It’s very very hard to get reliable streaming done right. It takes enormous resources. It’s much harder than building gilt edged hardware.

Thanks for your input as I trust you were trying to educate and not just throw shade. I think most of us, especially those that are involved with or have a deep understanding of software complexities, as well as those with a more limited understanding (read: me) of such, get that the Taiko Team has undertaken an enormous challenge, to say the least. We who have so far enjoyed the sonic fruits of their labor support them to the max in both spirit and action, and feel gratitude to be a part of this journey!

 

[John T]

That's the point, it is near perfect with Roon. I could be mistaken but I don't think Taiko discusses software other than Roon when selling the Extreme. They really could have just stopped there. XDMS is a huge bonus which is beyond the Extreme sale.

If I am wrong about this I am all ears.

Your not wrong David. I spoke with Emile more times than he most likely wanted to. Never did he push potential upcoming platforms. He laid it out clear and concisely. Even broke down % of Roon/Tas users. I purchased full well knowing XDMS will be a work in progress...John

 

[MarkusBarkus]

If I am wrong about this I am all ears.

...not wrong, no David, but perhaps a matter of timing.

I will be coming along to two years on TAS, come 2023. I purchased the Extreme because I didn't have to use Roon. If it was a Roon-only solution, I would not have purchased the Extreme. I don't want Roon, a statement I have been making for low these two years now.

I think for more recent customers, with XDMS in the pipeline, Taiko guys have not delivered TAS, which is being phased out. Makes sense. TAS is very stable for me, but those guys don't want to be supporting new drops and multiple software applications when the desire is for global leadership with XDMS!

 

[Steve williams]

I imagine that you may use your Extreme in a similar manner as someone might use a CD transport and, in that context, your comments make absolute sense - SQ trumps all. But you are overlooking what is, to me, the most important aspect of Roon which is its ability to play music through a whole variety of different music devices all round the house using the same proficient and easy to use control software. I can only assume that you have not had to patiently explain (over and over) to a frustrated spouse why she has to use different apps in each room and which app in which room is the right one to choose?

Since getting my Extreme, I have been totally satisfied with the SQ improvements that I have been able to achieve whilst using Roon and that was my only objective back when I made the purchase. I knew nothing of XDMS back then. Any SQ improvements derived from XDMS will of course be a bonus but will also bring along a number of usability complications - unless I buy another Roon core to serve the rest of the house and leave Extreme on XDMS for the main system but, even at that, I would lose the unexpected but greatly appreciated SQ improvements that Extreme gives me all around the house through various different devices.

Whilst I can understand your point of view as it applies to you, I sincerely hope that it is not one shared by Taiko themselves.

I use the KISS technique (Kept simple stupid)I have my listening room for my music and for music through the house we simply use Alexa in our kitchen, Reading your set up I have zero interest dong what you do. You complicate your life with your frustrated spouse.Mine has no problem saying, "hey Alexa, play me some music I like"......voila

And no I don'ts my Extreme as I do a CD. I have almost 16 TB's of digital files that I can easily peruse using the "folders"section until the platform is fully developed. As for Discord and being in the Alpha 2 test group, as dminches states it really is fun reading how the smartest of the alpha users working together help flush out the bugs.

I remain steadfast in my constant comments that IMO there is no audio manufacturer that even comes close to the client satisfaction that remains consistently excellent. I also remain steadfast in stating that to my ears Roon is an albatross even when compared to the alpha2 XDMS which is only going to get better.

To my ears and being a part of the alpha2 testers I find it simply amazing that the SQ one day which is sounding so good, only seems to sound better with each new iteration ( a new one was released today that I can't wait to test today and read what others are finding on Discord. So @godofwealth I can only say that to some your comments might make sense but to the many devoted Taiko followers I would bet money that they disagree with your bet that Taiko won't pull this off.Have you even heard XDMS before you posted earlier. It is very easy to make a blanket statement but this Taiko team is at the cutting edge. .......I believe Emile in every step of the way. When Roon went down 4 years ago and the SQ deteriorated with their recent build, Emile had enough and turned his vision elsewhere and assembled his team. I remember Emile stating that his goal is to control the audio signal from the time it leaves the router, to the time it leaves the Extreme. It has been a 4 year labor of love and the beauty is how Taiko includes its users in the development of its new platform. It's like the old hamburger commercial "have it your way" as the alpha2 users are all providing ideas and feedback to bring Eile's goal to fruition.More additions are hopefully going to be released before end of year but now all manufacturers are fighting the supply chain causing releases to be pushed back. I would have no doubt that Emile is in the same position where he cannot supply the demand, just yet.

So no matter what anyone posts negative about Taiko as did @godofwealth, I can only say that it brought a smile to my face because clearly he feels the smallness of Taiko will preclude their success. Im in for the long run and wish the team all the success.

Emile, Ed , Christiaan, and Winston and all of the coding team ....simply put, you're the greatest. All good things come to he who waits"

 

[Blackmorec]

Why am I not getting the point of this Taiko frenzy? You pay 30 grand fur a server that is unable to stream Qobuz properly (something that a $1k Mac mini would probably do effortlessly). Does this bother anyone on this rather incredibly long thread? Or is the mere fact of ownership transcend such pedestrian concerns that the said product should actually work?

Incidentally, as someone who has spent his entire life in high end computer science, Taiko’s software glitches don’t surprise me at all. You can gilt edge the hardware all you like. It’s the software reliability that’s the tough nut to crack. Roon went through many iterations to get a measure of stability. As a sixty something who first used a web browser 30+ years ago called Netscape (anyone remember that?), it would crash every 5 minutes. I wish Taiko the best of luck, but much larger companies have been unable to crack this problem (I own a Sony media server, and its software is simply awful). Taiko is a really small company. Producing reliable streaming software will take an enormous amount of resources, as Roon has discovered.

Hi there godofwealth,
Good question. Just to point out that this answer is coming from a Taiko follower but non-Extreme user. I’m ploughing a different furrow. The reason I like to follow Taiko is that they are breaking new ground in terms of sound quality and that broken ground reveals information about what’s holding back digital streaming performance. Information that has broader application than just Taiko (thanks guys )
When you buy an Extreme, you’re not so much buying a product as buying a journey. The original Extreme was exclusively a Roon platform…its architecture designed to provide optimum SQ from Roon. At the time of its launch the Extreme provided the very best sound quality available from Roon. Since that time of the initial launch several things became apparent…
Roon is massively, massively feature rich which is both its advantage and its achilles heel.
SQ could be much better than with Roon
There was huge amounts of further optimization available from both a networking and a software perspective.
So Taiko and the Extreme are on a journey, from a Roon only platform to a fully optimized network (future products) plus server running an operating system and sw designed to build on and leverage the network and generous Extreme architecture.
I’m taking a different route to get to my Nirvana but that’s what you buy when you buy a Taiko. A route to Audio Nirvana, now and into the future

And just to add, by way of illustration, the SQ of a fully optimized Extreme is far far higher today than it was at launch, and it was astounding at launch (So i’m told by many whose ears I trust). The price to get those large improvements is fairly minuscule compared to the original price. Those upgrades are superb added value….big leaps in SQ for little or no money. Can‘t beat that even with a very large stick. That’s what people are buying

 

[ticktock]

Sure, Roon with any well designed hardware platform will work well, I expect. I use the Lampizator server, but the first thing I did was install the Roon Rock Linux server on it (I was not surprised at all that Lampi’s own software was non-functional when I tried to use it). The world runs on Linux. It’s the most stable OS that’s also free (the two are not an accidental coincidence).

To reiterate my point. It’s not the hardware I’m talking about. It’s the software. Clearly, Taiko has gilt edged the hardware. Great. But what about the software? I take it they are trying to roll their own. I wish them the best of luck. All the gilt-edged hardware in the world at the end of the day means little to produce solid reliable software. Clearly, folks on this thread are finding that out. That’s what I was commenting on.

Let me put It another way. The pioneer in the audio streaming world, long before Roon, was Squuezebox. They put out an amazing lineup of forward thinking products (e.g., the Transporter) that was miles ahead of others. Their secret to success was making it open and based on Linux. A huge community sprung up to find bugs and fix them. A huge number of third party apps came out of Squeeze software. Enter Sony. They made hugely better hardware, e.g., HAP-Z1ES media server. Their software was proprietary and a joke. If you tried to upload your library of albums, what would take Squeeze an hour or so could take several days on the Sony (I know because I went through that experience). Their hardware was great. Their software was awful.

So, I’m only referring to Taiko’s recent efforts at software streaming, not their hardware and Roon integration. It’s very very hard to get reliable streaming done right. It takes enormous resources. It’s much harder than building gilt edged hardware.

Totally get where you're coming from. My approach, however, was quite different.

When I first considered buying a Taiko Extreme, the proprietary USB card and TAS (predecessor to XDMS and itself a Taiko software project) were still new, and there was so much interaction here and elsewhere among users and the Taiko team working to try to wring every last bit of performance. As I've discovered for myself, TAS is not perfect and has its glitches -- although from my experience, those glitches don't include Qobuz streaming. For me, sound quality is everything, and I'm willing to tolerate a few glitches and a less pretty interface. To my ears, TAS was clearly better than Roon and my decision to leave Roon behind was easy. Others may not be as forgiving and that's okay. That's what Roon compatibility is for.

Ultimately, what sold me on the Extreme was that it wasn't simply a state-of-the-art product for sale, but an evolving platform. I saw for myself the passion, dedication and nearly exhaustive energy of the Taiko team to test and push almost every conceivable envelope, and I think it's unsurpassed in the industry. For me, that was a critical selling point. Do I expect success at every bend and turn? Of course not. But for my money, there is already an ample track record of Taiko achievements that lends substantial credibility to their continuing and future efforts to boost the Extreme's performance to new heights. I'm buckled in and ready for the ride, wherever it takes me.