Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Zeotrope]

Sure, Roon with any well designed hardware platform will work well, I expect. I use the Lampizator server, but the first thing I did was install the Roon Rock Linux server on it (I was not surprised at all that Lampi’s own software was non-functional when I tried to use it). The world runs on Linux. It’s the most stable OS that’s also free (the two are not an accidental coincidence).

To reiterate my point. It’s not the hardware I’m talking about. It’s the software. Clearly, Taiko has gilt edged the hardware. Great. But what about the software? I take it they are trying to roll their own. I wish them the best of luck. All the gilt-edged hardware in the world at the end of the day means little to produce solid reliable software. Clearly, folks on this thread are finding that out. That’s what I was commenting on.

Let me put It another way. The pioneer in the audio streaming world, long before Roon, was Squuezebox. They put out an amazing lineup of forward thinking products (e.g., the Transporter) that was miles ahead of others. Their secret to success was making it open and based on Linux. A huge community sprung up to find bugs and fix them. A huge number of third party apps came out of Squeeze software. Enter Sony. They made hugely better hardware, e.g., HAP-Z1ES media server. Their software was proprietary and a joke. If you tried to upload your library of albums, what would take Squeeze an hour or so could take several days on the Sony (I know because I went through that experience). Their hardware was great. Their software was awful.

So, I’m only referring to Taiko’s recent efforts at software streaming, not their hardware and Roon integration. It’s very very hard to get reliable streaming done right. It takes enormous resources. It’s much harder than building gilt edged hardware.

Not able to comprehend your “gilt edged” point. Do you even know what it is, other than an unsolicited rant?

Roon does not produce the best sound quality. Far from it.

The Extreme not only takes physical streaming to the next level, but also is developing the software to take it even further. You can use Roon with the Extreme and still surpass anything else on the market.
What’s the problem? Or are you just looking for reasons to use the term: “gilt edged” in conversation?

 

[Zeotrope]

The cost of XDMS is paid when you purchase the Extreme. Nothing is free, as Taiko and others have to make money to stay in business.

Actually, no, it is not. The Extreme could exist as a hardware device and nothing more. The cost of XDMS is borne by Taiko but it certainly is not “part of” the purchase price. I think you meant it’s funded internally.

 

[bryans]

Actually, no, it is not. The Extreme could exist as a hardware device and nothing more. The cost of XDMS is borne by Taiko but it certainly is not “part of” the purchase price. I think you meant it’s funded internally.

You and I can believe what we want. Taiko is able to provide the XDMS and other SW via products people purchase from them. It is a business and if you can't see that it's OK. Like I said before there is nothing wrong with it.

 

[Zeotrope]

You and I can believe what we want. Taiko is able to provide the XDMS and other SW via products people purchase from them. It is a business and if you can't see that it's OK. Like I said before there is nothing wrong with it.

No. It’s not a matter of “believing what you want” - it’s not subjective. The correct business term is that the software is funded internally. You’re confusing terms. Saying something is “included in the purchase price” implies an expectation that the service is included with the purchase.
XDMS could be funded from revenue, it could be funded from external investors, it’s irrelevant.
It’s optional for use with the Extreme and it could certainly be something they charge extra for.

 

[bryans]

No. It’s not a matter of “believing what you want” - it’s not subjective. The correct business term is that the software is funded internally. You’re confusing terms. Saying something is “included in the purchase price” implies an expectation that the service is included with the purchase.
XDMS could be funded from revenue, it could be funded from external investors, it’s irrelevant.
It’s optional for use with the Extreme and it could certainly be something they charge extra for.

That is exactly what I said. You are choosing to interpret my words that way you want. It is funded by products they sell. Like I have said plenty of times there is nothing wrong with it.

 

[Zeotrope]

That is exactly what I said. You are choosing to interpret my words that way you want. It is funded by products they sell. Like I have said plenty of times there is nothing wrong with it.

Read my post again.
We do not know how they are funding development and it’s honestly irrelevant.

 

[gleeds]

I listened to the new software and felt it was game-changing compared to the current Taiko software. As compared to Roon, I can't say but I expect the gap is even wider. However, no doubt it also has a ways to go before it becomes a seamless interface.

IMHO, Taiko continues to push the state of the digital art to new heights. It's a fiercely competitive sector, and it appears that Taiko understands that to stay out front, they must keep innovating on SQ to remain a leader. No doubt others, e.g., Innous, Antipodes, Pink Fawn, etc.now have their own $20k plus offering to make the point.

Emile is an adventurer entrepreneur, never satisfied or inclined to rest on his lead. How Taiko allocates profit to fund R&D, or whether to charge or not charge for their software, is an internal decision. Costs always have to go somewhere, and each factory gets to pick its poison.

I have learned a great deal from this thread. Lets keep it going!

 

[QuantumWave]

I have to say it does take the patience of Budha to sustain criticisms when you innovate - essentially you’d be acclaimed by standing still, but it you dare moving the status quo you’ll trigger all kinds of criticisms, it’s just a psychological trait we all have to look at the cracks. So well done Taiko, and to the crtitics I suggest a read on Wasi-sabi , it’s a beautiful Japanese concept that might possibly apply to XDMS, the beauty is in the cracks

 

[godofwealth]

Speaking for myself, the current iteration of XDMS is already leaps and bounds ahead of Roon when playing music files on the Extreme server. Not just in terms of sound quality but also in terms of navigation of one’s music files (the lack of folder view on Roon makes it pretty much unusable for me from a practical standpoint). In terms of stability and lack of bugs it is far ahead of TAS, the proprietary software it replaced. And it’s still in Alpha state. I think it’s quite remarkable if you ask me.

I think Taiko is fully aware of how difficult software development is, but nevertheless went down this path so that they could achieve the absolute best sound quality, in my book that is extremely commendable and ought to be encouraged.

I’m glad to hear this. I’m really impressed a company like Taiko could invest in software development to support what must be a tiny community. What’s the ROI here (forgive the Bay Area lingo, it’s Return on Investment)? How many Taiko Extreme servers have been sold? I’m guessing a few hundred at best, perhaps I’m wrong. For comparison, Lampizator made an extraordinary effort at designing the Horizon DAC, a no holds-barred design, but seems to have sold a few dozen, not surprising to me given its cost. So, out of this relatively small Taiko community, how many would opt for XDMS over Roon? Again. an even smaller number. Don’t get me wrong. I’m thrilled that Taiko is taking the effort to design the Extreme server, both the heroic effort needed for hardware and the software. But the ROI? It can’t be financially all that profitable. Other than a sheer labor of love, which is highly creditable, is this going to financially rewarding to keep them in business?

 

[EuroDriver]

But the ROI? It can’t be financially all that profitable. Other than a sheer labor of love, which is highly creditable, is this going to financially rewarding to keep them in business?

It's classified, I could tell you but then I would . . . . .

 

[John T]

I have to say it does take the patience of Budha to sustain criticisms when you innovate - essentially you’d be acclaimed by standing still, but it you dare moving the status quo you’ll trigger all kinds of criticisms, it’s just a psychological trait we all have to look at the cracks. So well done Taiko, and to the crtitics I suggest a read on Wasi-sabi , it’s a beautiful Japanese concept that might possibly apply to XDMS, the beauty is in the cracks

The approach/philosophy/incorporation into ones life "Wabi-Sabi" is a beautiful concept. Much deeper than modern day interpretation of mindfulness. Well beyond the scope of this subject matter as well. If anyone is looking for enlightenment, well beyond the boundaries of music, give yourself a gift and read a little about this concept. It can be transformative. @QuantumWave thank you for mentioning this...John

 

[Cyrus]

Other than a sheer labor of love, which is highly creditable, is this going to financially rewarding to keep them in business?

@godofwealth I can see a major payoff if / when they license it out. The space would benefit from a few more wide adoption competitors / players.

 

[Zeotrope]

@godofwealth I can see a major payoff if / when they license it out. The space would benefit from a few more wide adoption competitors / players.

Never going to happen.
There’s no “ROI” here - or that’s not the way to think about it. What’s the ROI for OSX for the Mac? It’s either infinite or zero. It’s core to their product and business and that’s why they offer it.

 

[Tuckia]

Never going to happen.
There’s no “ROI” here - or that’s not the way to think about it. What’s the ROI for OSX for the Mac? It’s either infinite or zero. It’s core to their product and business and that’s why they offer it.

You can’t compare the Apple business model to the Taiko business model. Apple sells tens of millions of short lived hardware devices per annum. Hopefully Taiko can sell a few hundred units per year with each unit having a 20 year lifespan. Eventually the market becomes saturated. Those numbers don’t support infinite free software development.

Ever buy a license for Windows? For each and every device.

At some point, the software becomes bigger than the hardware and the only choice is to turn it into a revenue stream. Nothing is free, even if the government subsidizes R&D cost.

 

[Zeotrope]

The market does not become saturated- the high end, like the economy, continues to grow. Have you seen the size of the Munich High End show? It was tiny a decade ago.
And that’s overall growth: there are plenty of options to grow the existing user base through new and upgraded components.

 

[Tuckia]

Taiko is poised for growth and we all want that to be the case. R&D is essential.

Let's compare Aurender Conductor, Roon, TAS, and XDMS. I've used all but the latter, so far.

Conductor is proprietary and "free" - included in the price of the unit. It is rudimentary compared to Roon and a closed system. It should be free based on its performance level and feature set, IMO.

TAS is a stop-gap based on LMS. Understandable they did this based on the ROON SQ issue. Minimal development cost. "Free" makes sense.

Roon is full featured with continued development. It costs $119 per year. Although I disliked it at first compared to Conductor, after years of use, I've become reliant on it's feature set. Apparently others feel the same way as much of the feedback here is aimed at making XDMS function like Roon, not Conductor or TAS. If only Roon's SQ wasn't so variably smeared, compressed, and rounded.

Is it rational to think that XDMS can be a superior version of Roon and be free? Don't get me wrong, I would like it to be free, but my internal clock says that the longer this development process continues, the more likely they will need to be compensated beyond hardware sales. If that's the case, so be it. I'd be fine paying Taiko rather than Roon.

 

[Malcng]

Had a lovely roast beef lunch today with a bottle of red wine and music as usual, courtesy of the Extreme feeding a Naim Mu-so that we have in the dining room (via Ethernet/Roon). The sound quality is nice enough for what we require whilst dining and was given a decent and unexpected boost once we installed the Extreme. We played a Halloween playlist just for fun and also because my wife loves all things Halloween. I took my wine, wandered into the lounge and transferred the playlist across to the main system just as War Pigs by Black Sabbath came on and the sound quality was astonishing. Obviously, far from high brow music and not what I normally play nowadays but wow! - a track from the distant past but I’ve never heard it sounding like that. Amazing. My Extreme makes everything sound better than I’ve heard it before, sometimes hugely and quite surprisingly so, and I’m only on Roon so things can only get better apparently! Cheers Taiko. Back to more wine and cheesy music.

 

[Zeotrope]

Is it rational to think that XDMS can be a superior version of Roon and be free? Don't get me wrong, I would like it to be free, but my internal clock says that the longer this development process continues, the more likely they will need to be compensated beyond hardware sales. If that's the case, so be it. I'd be fine paying Taiko rather than Roon.

Agreed and makes sense. And just pure speculation of course, but I see Taiko (rightly) considering XDMS as an essential component to maximize the Extreme platform. As such, it makes sense to not charge extra for it.
I’m sure most, if not all owners, would not object to an annual maintenance fee for XDMS, to help pay for maintenance costs; but the volume of owners probably means that it won’t really make sense, unless they charge a lot more than what we are used to paying for software licenses.
Then you have to factor in the added complexity of a software license: additional customer support, a required internet connection (to validate the license), and the inevitable situations where a fully paid client can’t get past the “license expired” error and can’t play music. And what happens if you stop paying, can you use the version you have in perpetuity, or are you forced to use Roon….?
In short, charging a license fee is not that simple and adds a ton of complexity, for probably minimal additional revenue.

 

[cat6man]

The approach/philosophy/incorporation into ones life "Wabi-Sabi" is a beautiful concept. Much deeper than modern day interpretation of mindfulness. Well beyond the scope of this subject matter as well. If anyone is looking for enlightenment, well beyond the boundaries of music, give yourself a gift and read a little about this concept. It can be transformative. @QuantumWave thank you for mentioning this...John

one beautiful example of 'wabi-sabi' in art is the japanese art of Kintsugi...........google it

 

[John T]

one beautiful example of 'wabi-sabi' in art is the japanese art of Kintsugi...........google it

Embracing Imperfection...Very interesting art form and philosophy...The premise go's so much deeper....