Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Taiko Audio]

(Emile) has offered his opinion that the Rohm is the best sounding off-the-shelf DAC chip he's heard.

There aren’t actually that many options to choose from anymore: AKM, Rohm and ESS. The Rohm „sounds“ the most natural to me. Did not try the new revision AKM flagship though as it wasn’t available yet. But I should add that the influence of the DAC chip itself is actually not that large, if I had to put numbers on it it would be something like:

-Interface 40%, DAC chip 10%, analogue stage 50%.

The Rohm current segments do allow for a more „elegant“ analogue output stage design which might be what placed it ahead giving it perhaps a larger share in the 10/50 figures quoted above, like maybe 20/40.

 

[RGB.]

Should work fine. Linux driver support is not hard to add.

Thanks Emile,
I suppose the "should work fine" also include the AMD hardware compability question?
(I ask since for example PF is more AMD-oriented and some of their cards seem to have issues with Intel. And since the Extreme is Xeon based I wanted to check AMD compability.)

I probably will need to tweak passive cooling of another card a bit to room the TACDA.
What is worse is that I will need a PCIe riser cable to fit such a large card in my chassis Yes I know...
Would you Emile regard this as an "acceptable" connection of the TACDA or not, and does it perhaps even exist/or will exist an ok PCIe riser cable?

Powering the TACDA has been mentioned I think. Here comes a DIY-oriented approach. I could feed it DC from the Taiko DC DC ATX (SATA) or from Sean Jacobs 5/12V rails. How will it best be fed DC (externally)?

Hope this little DIY-detour was ok
Now back to the Extreme

 

[nenon]

Hope this little DIY-detour was ok

I felt like I needed to chime in here

What is worse is that I will need a PCIe riser cable to fit such a large card in my chassis Yes I know...

The Taiko DIY chassis is rarely mentioned on this thread. https://taikoaudio.com/taiko-2020/product/diy-audio-server-chassis/
I would highly recommend to people who are planning to use the PCIe TACDA/TACDD card to consider moving their DIY server to the Taiko chassis. Yes, the chassis is not cheap but the quality is exceptionally good. No comparison to HDPlex, Streacom, etc.

You will benefit from:
a. Extra space inside. Also avoiding the PCIe riser cable.
b. Lower temperature, which believe it or not has a significant sound impact.
c. Excellent vibration properties. EMI/RFI as well...
Given that this chassis will be your server AND your DAC, it should be worth spending some extra money to get this right.

I would not know until I try it, but I have a feeling that a PCIe riser cable may kill a lot of the performance of this DAC card.

Powering the TACDA has been mentioned I think. Here comes a DIY-oriented approach. I could feed it DC from the Taiko DC DC ATX (SATA) or from Sean Jacobs 5/12V rails. How will it best be fed DC (externally)?

As far as I am aware there is no space for external power connectors to be routed to the outside of the chassis. Fitting RCA, BNC, Toslink, etc takes all the space on this card already.
Expect to have a Molex connector on the back just like the Taiko USB card. Extreme users will connect it to the auxiliary GX16-4 pin power connector, where they connect the USB card currently. I read somewhere that a Y-connector will be provided in case you want to connect both (the USB card and the DAC card).

Those who use the Taiko DC-DC ATX can use it's SATA output connection for the DAC card. That has a pretty good quality separate +5VSB rail and a shared +12V rail. How good those two rails perform depends to a large degree on the quality of the power supply feeding the DC-DC ATX (an unregulated LPS for most people I hope). But they are better than many aftermarket linear power supplies.
You can get an improvement with a high-end LPS, but that would mean mixing up grounds of multiple power supplies which may have some negative impact. I will be making those experiments for my own system and will be happy to share my findings.
The DC-DC ATX (SATA ouptut) will probably be good enough for most people.
And not to forget, the beauty of the Taiko BPS will be to lift the entire digital source (router, switch, Extreme, and DAC) off the grid!

(I ask since for example PF is more AMD-oriented and some of their cards seem to have issues with Intel. And since the Extreme is Xeon based I wanted to check AMD compability.)

PinkFaun uses the C-media CM8888 chip, which was not officially supported on ALSA when I used it (3.5 years ago). It worked on some Linux distributions but it had issues with certain Linux distributions and some hardware. As far as I know the developers of C-media were just not interested in the very small high-end market, and they never fixed the issue with some Intel CPUs. That might have changed in the past 3 years, so don't take my word for it.

Taiko has in-house expertise when it comes to writing / tweaking drivers, and so I don't think we'll run into that with Taiko if they decide to add support for Linux. And it seems like Emile is willing to do that. In fact, I have volunteered to help with testing/listening to the Linux driver. I miss some of that digital-source DIY fun!

 

[Sampajanna]

Well if Emile could put a few tubes in that PCIe card to make the DAC sound like my Horizon I might jump but I’m on board for everything else especially Emile’s new connection that Lampi, MSB and TotalDAC seem committed to

What is this new connection you speak of ? Very interested in this development.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Thanks Emile,
I suppose the "should work fine" also include the AMD hardware compability question?
(I ask since for example PF is more AMD-oriented and some of their cards seem to have issues with Intel. And since the Extreme is Xeon based I wanted to check AMD compability.)

I probably will need to tweak passive cooling of another card a bit to room the TACDA.
What is worse is that I will need a PCIe riser cable to fit such a large card in my chassis Yes I know...
Would you Emile regard this as an "acceptable" connection of the TACDA or not, and does it perhaps even exist/or will exist an ok PCIe riser cable?

Powering the TACDA has been mentioned I think. Here comes a DIY-oriented approach. I could feed it DC from the Taiko DC DC ATX (SATA) or from Sean Jacobs 5/12V rails. How will it best be fed DC (externally)?

Hope this little DIY-detour was ok
Now back to the Extreme

Let me know if there are any lingering questions after @nenon 's thorough reply

 

[Taiko Audio]

What is this new connection you speak of ? Very interested in this development.

Here's a summary of posts made in this thread on that subject.

 

[MarcelNL]

As far as I know the developers of C-media were just not interested in the very small high-end market, and they never fixed the issue with some Intel CPUs. That might have changed in the past 3 years, so don't take my word for it.

that has not changed, the issue with some intel CPU's remains yet those CPU's are most likely phased out by now
(it did not work on my Celeron based 'vintage' Intel NUC)
their (PF) website currently states;

Pink Faun I2S bridge supported platforms:

Intel CPU with all Windows versions (WASAPI)

AMD CPU with all Windows versions (WASAPI)

AMD CPU with all Linux distributions (ALSA)


I may have missed it but does this TACDA (rather TACDD) card allow I2S out too? (personally I'm not overly keen in on delta sigma)

edit; just read the PDF, and it seems feasible
Perhaps contact Cees Ruitenberg from Metrum Acoustics and Sonnet Audio on running I2S over a distance?

 

[Christiaan Punter]

that has not changed, the issue with some intel CPU's remains yet those CPU's are most likely phased out by now
(it did not work on my Celeron based 'vintage' Intel NUC)
their (PF) website currently states;

Pink Faun I2S bridge supported platforms:

Intel CPU with all Windows versions (WASAPI)

AMD CPU with all Windows versions (WASAPI)

AMD CPU with all Linux distributions (ALSA)


I may have missed it but does this TACDA (rather TACDD) card allow I2S out too? (personally I'm not overly keen in on delta sigma)

edit; just read the PDF, and it seems feasible
Perhaps contact Cees Ruitenberg from Metrum Acoustics and Sonnet Audio on running I2S over a distance?

The TACDA card (this is the DA-converter card) as it is currently planned for release will not have an I2S output.

However, we are contemplating other interface cards with alternative interfaces such as MSB Pro ISL, other forms of I2S, and probably dual AES/EBU.

 

[MarcelNL]

The TACDA card (this is the DA-converter card) as it is currently planned for release will not have an I2S output.

However, we are contemplating other interface cards with alternative interfaces such as MSB Pro ISL, other forms of I2S, and probably dual AES/EBU.

I was indeed pointing at the TACDD version.

 

[oldmustang]

The TACDA card (this is the DA-converter card) as it is currently planned for release will not have an I2S output.

However, we are contemplating other interface cards with alternative interfaces such as MSB Pro ISL, other forms of I2S, and probably dual AES/EBU.

Christiaan,

Are there two cards then, TACDA and TACDD? I thought the upcoming PCIe card combined analog output via the Rohm DAC (the TACDA part) as well as digital output(s) from the TACDD section, all on one card.

Steve Z

 

[7ryder]

From the attached -

The first product to appear is a PCIe Card (TACDA) with the following features
• Analog RCA outputs
• S/PDIF RCA and BNC, and TOSlink digital outputs
• Rohm BD34301EKV DAC chip
• Powered via an internal DC power cable from the Extreme power supply
• Can be added to existing Extreme music servers

expected availability March 2023

 

[oldmustang]

From the attached -

The first product to appear is a PCIe Card (TACDA) with the following features
• Analog RCA outputs
• S/PDIF RCA and BNC, and TOSlink digital outputs
• Rohm BD34301EKV DAC chip
• Powered via an internal DC power cable from the Extreme power supply
• Can be added to existing Extreme music servers

expected availability March 2023

Thanks for reminding me I need to read more carefully! I skipped right over the identification that this is the TACDA card and I was assuming the digital outputs were from a TACDD section, also on the same card.

Steve Z

 

[Christiaan Punter]

Thanks for reminding me I need to read more carefully! I skipped right over the identification that this is the TACDA card and I was assuming the digital outputs were from a TACDD section, also on the same card.

Steve Z

I can imagine the confusion! To be honest, I still have not fully memorized the model names myself! ;-)

But indeed, the first card will be TACDA: Taiko Audio CPU Direct to Analog.

For now, TACDD (Taiko Audio CPU Direct to Digital) is what we refer to as the proprietary interface format.

More cards are certainly conceivable, and given Emile's perseverance, probably a sure bet;-)

 

[DW101]

I can imagine the confusion! To be honest, I still have not fully memorized the model names myself! ;-)

But indeed, the first card will be TACDA: Taiko Audio CPU Direct to Analog.

For now, TACDD (Taiko Audio CPU Direct to Digital) is what we refer to as the proprietary interface format.

More cards are certainly conceivable, and given Emile's perseverance, probably a sure bet;-)

I'd like to put in a strong +1 vote / request for a card that interfaces to the Chord DAVE dual BNC digital inputs to get up to 768kHz sample rates (think it might be SPDIF format, not 100% sure), please!!

 

[simorag]

I'd like to put in a strong +1 vote / request for a card that interfaces to the Chord DAVE dual BNC digital inputs to get up to 768kHz sample rates (think it might be SPDIF format, not 100% sure), please!!

I hear you, but if I understood right, the TACDD would provide a sonic advantage over USB only in case the new mystery protocol / interconnect would be supported by the DAC with a dedicated receiver...

For us DAVE users I believe the best option for 768 remains the USB type 4 driver to an SRC-DX and dual BNC to DAVE.

Or, get the upcoming TACDA card and ditch the DAVE altogether

 

[DW101]

I hear you, but if I understood right, the TACDD would provide a sonic advantage over USB only in case the new mystery protocol / interconnect would be supported by the DAC with a dedicated receiver...

For us DAVE users I believe the best option for 768 remains the USB type 4 driver to an SRC-DX and dual BNC to DAVE.

Or, get the upcoming TACDA card and ditch the DAVE altogether

Hmm, maybe I misunderstood - I thought the big win for the TACDD protocol was to get rid of USB. Taiko have basically exhausted the noise reduction possibilities for USB, hence the invention of TACDD to progress further.

So if we had a card that used TACDD 'internally' and outputted via 2 BNC outputs that we could plug directly into our DAVE's BNC inputs, eliminating USB (and the SRC.DX), then that would be better. No?

 

[nonesup]

The TACDA card already has a spdif- BNC output (not dual) that could go directly to your DAVE. Taiko indicates that it is superior to the spdif output that until now could be requested in Extreme.
The TACDD card is a new Extreme-DAC proprietary interconnect protocol, the type of cable-connector it will have has not yet been reported, and it requires a TACDD receiver on the DAC. Therefore, TACDD is definitely not going to use the spdif protocol.

 

[DW101]

The TACDA card already has a spdif- BNC output (not dual) that could go directly to your DAVE. Taiko indicates that it is superior to the spdif output that until now could be requested in Extreme.
The TACDD card is a new Extreme-DAC proprietary interconnect protocol, the type of cable-connector it will have has not yet been reported, and it requires a TACDD receiver on the DAC. Therefore, TACDD is definitely not going to use the spdif protocol.

Understood, thanks.

The TACDA single SPDIF is limited in sample-rate resolution over the dual BNC inputs of a DAVE, but it will indeed work. And may turn out to be better SQ using lower sample rate files over the one SDPIF output than the USB / SRC.DX we are currently using at the moment to get 768kHz and avoiding the DAVE's USB input. We'll see; I hope so.

I agree that TACDD is a proprietary interface format, I was reacting to the idea of a potential number of new cards mentioned by @Christiaan Punter in posts 14528 and 14533

"we are contemplating other interface cards with alternative interfaces such as MSB Pro ISL, other forms of I2S, and probably dual AES/EBU."

I was cheekily asking if one of those could output 768kHz via dual BNCs compatible with the Chord DAVE, so I could have Taiko implemented dual BNC outputs and avoid USB whilst still getting 768kHz sample rates.

The assumption I made is that such cards would make use of the TACDD format to talk to the various interfaces being suggested (in my suggested case 2 x SPDIF via BNC), as I thought that's what the TACDA card does for its various outputs and D/A convertor. Could be wrong.

 

[RGB.]

The Taiko DIY chassis is rarely mentioned on this thread.

Hi Nenon, and thanks for the reply. You are a/the DIY resource!
I am aware if the Taiko DIY chassis, but for me unfortunately it is a no due to its size.
I only need space for an ATX MB, with two PCIe cards mounted, and the Taiko DC DC ATX.
My audio setup is growing, and I am in a size predicament. (That´s one of the reasons why I like the TACDA concept.) Since the Taiko chassis is designed for Sage MB, internal ULPS and a lot of storage it would mostly contain void in my “case”.

You can get an improvement with a high-end LPS, but that would mean mixing up grounds of multiple power supplies which may have some negative impact. I will be making those experiments for my own system and will be happy to share my findings.

I plan to use three Sean Jacobs power supplies in total, including his ULPS.
I suppose I wil connect my Furutech Pure Power 6 to a PS Audio P12 outlet and connect all three SJ units to the Pure Power 6. But better suggestions is always welcome.

Let me know if there are any lingering questions

Thanks Emile,
First I want to say that I´m VERY interested in the TACDA. Except for no balanced output (A design decision can I understand. I mean how many components, and how much heat, can/should you squeeze onto a single PCIe card.) it otherwise seems perfect for my plans. Love the concept, and I am a believer in the final result
I have two questions:
- What is the DC Voltage (range) for the TACDA? (I have SJ 5V and 12V rails, and of course the Taiko DC DC SATA Molex.)

- As mentioned, I am worried about the riser cable aspect, and it seems that I have reason to. If you, or anyone else, happen to later on stumble across an “ok” cable-solution to this specific card I am all ears, to put it mildly. If not, perhaps a Taiko DAC in my server is not ment to be in my specific case.

 

[dminches]

Hi Nenon, and thanks for the reply. You are a/the DIY resource!
I am aware if the Taiko DIY chassis, but for me unfortunately it is a no due to its size.
I only need space for an ATX MB, with two PCIe cards mounted, and the Taiko DC DC ATX.
My audio setup is growing, and I am in a size predicament. (That´s one of the reasons why I like the TACDA concept.) Since the Taiko chassis is designed for Sage MB, internal ULPS and a lot of storage it would mostly contain void in my “case”.

There is a Streacom case that can fit cards in a vertical position. I modified the FC10 and replaced the back panel to accommodate this. Have you tried that?