Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[austinpop]

There are usually two main reasons for people to go the DIY route. One is to get better performance cheaper by skipping the dealer commission, marketing, R&D and other parts of the cost you pay when you buy a commercial product. And the other one is to make something better than the available commercial products and to have an infinite number of ways to tweak your system.

This is so insightful by @nenon!

Certainly, I fell into that second camp, not so much by choice but by necessity, since the available music servers and streamers at the time (2 years ago) seemed to be optimizing the wrong things, compared to what @nenon , @romaz , I and others were finding in our own experiments.

But all that changed once I saw what Emile was doing with the Extreme. Someone said it very well a few posts upstream — with the Extreme, you're not just buying a product, you're buying into a project, and signing up for a journey to benefit from Emile's continuing experiments.

 

[caesar]

I have actually heard The E, Innous statement AND Grimm back to back. My dealer made an event (shootout) between the three of them when mine arrived. And this is in a small town in northern Sweden. I cant stress this enough- thees guys at my dealer are incredible. Curios and willing to learn. Anywho- after the shootout they sold two moore Extremes! The competition? Zeeroo!

Hi Jaxho,
When you did your shootouts with the competition, did you find that all the streamers have a similar sound and just present more information to the DAC (which many guys in the hobby claim/ perceive to be the case)? Or did you find that all the streamers have a different sound?

Interestingly, my top physical transports , the MBL Reference and Esoteric Reference have a slight - yet very different sound. The MBL sounds less precise, more tube like. The Esoteric is more solid-state-like. It has more detail, bigger bass, and sounds more precise, but not in a clinical, sterile, "clean" way that most popular solid state sounds like. I am dissecting the differences, but I enjoy both transports tremendously and both put me in a state of flow.

Thanks

 

[bryans]

When you did your shootouts with the competition, did you find that all the streamers have a similar sound and just present more information to the DAC (which many guys in the hobby claim/ perceive to be the case)? Or did you find that all the streamers have a different sound?

I have always wondered how one can tell the difference between this. If a person owns an Aurender (or whatever) and tries an Extreme. And they like the Extreme better. Does this mean the Extreme sounds different or did it just send more info to the DAC. In the end I guess it really doesn't matter.

 

[jaxho]

Or did you find that all the streamers have a different sound?

Yes, to my ears they have differences that are easy to hear. But first of all, it depends what you have heard before. At my dealer they have a Innous Zenith (which betterd a nucleus). When they turned on the Statement- wow, much better. When they turned on Grimm- okay, quite different presentation (vs Statement). But both are better then Zenith. A crude comparison could be: Statement- a little shy in the treble. Grimm- more open but a little sharp edges to the tones. And if you would choose the one you liked most of the two , you could live happily ever after.

But, when they fired up the Extreme, the others fell flat to the ground, crying .
Soundstage opend up. Height, width and depth expanded. Tonal balance and dynamics- much better.
So its easy to give this advice: if you cant buy it, dont listen to it!

One of the listerners had read a lot about Grimm and really wanted to buy it (before the shootout). He was uneasy in his chair, turning and sighing.
But in the end he desided to buy the Extreme. He said something like: now that i got it in my head, i cant get it out

Greetings Jaxho

 

[Taiko Audio]

Thank you so much. Since up sampling seems to be a big positive, at least according to Atkinson, and the fact that Chord sells a $5K device that seems to be doing something similar, is this a feature that you may potentially be adding?

Or is it easier to have your product in "purer form" and let the end customer find the best algorithm / chord-like hardware device that jives with their preference?

Thanks

Hi @caesar ,

You may or may not be aware that the vast majority of DACs actually already perform up sampling themselves. This makes server based up sampling more a matter of replacing the DAC up sampling algorithms by superior ones, which can be superior because a server can have a significant larger amount of processing resources available. If you feed a higher sampling rate into a DAC their internal up sampling algorithms are either bypassed or less "demanding" or less "harmful" filters are applied. A filter needing to provide a very steep cut off at say 21KHz for a 22.5KHz bandwidth signal (redbook / cd) is much harder to design without artefacts in the range below cutoff (audio range) then a filter for higher bandwidth signals. For example with DSD (SACD) at 2.8MHz or higher rates you can get away with a slow roloff filter at for example 100KHz. Now there is a lot more to this as you can apply very sophisticated noise shaping algorithms on up sampled signals which can push digital noise levels down to almost non existent and there are people specialised in designing these, like Jussi Laako of Signalyst HQPlayer and we have ZB of PGGB now which is gaining popularity amongst our userbase fast. HQplayer and PGGB you can indeed use with/on the Extreme to up sample the signal before sending it to the DAC if you so desire.

For clarity these are the ways you can up sample with the Extreme:

1) Use Roon real-time up sampling
2) Use HQplayer real-time upsampling, HQPlayer can be used as an output to either Roon or our own TAS.
3) Perform offline up sampling, meaning up sample your stored files before playback, this is where PGGB is gaining ground fast. We are planning to integrate a real-time version of PGGB (optional of course) into our upcoming XDMS software which will be replacing TAS. But this will have to be added at a later stage as we are now working to get it out as fast as we can. The first version of XDMS will not support up sampling which leaves you with PGGB or HQPlayer offline up sampling as the only 2 options for that, for now.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Yes, to my ears they have differences that are easy to hear. But first of all, it depends what you have heard before. At my dealer they have a Innous Zenith (which betterd a nucleus). When they turned on the Statement- wow, much better. When they turned on Grimm- okay, quite different presentation (vs Statement). But both are better then Zenith. A crude comparison could be: Statement- a little shy in the treble. Grimm- more open but a little sharp edges to the tones. And if you would choose the one you liked most of the two , you could live happily ever after.

But, when they fired up the Extreme, the others fell flat to the ground, crying .
Soundstage opend up. Height, width and depth expanded. Tonal balance and dynamics- much better.
So its easy to give this advice: if you cant buy it, dont listen to it!

One of the listerners had read a lot about Grimm and really wanted to buy it (before the shootout). He was uneasy in his chair, turning and sighing.
But in the end he desided to buy the Extreme. He said something like: now that i got it in my head, i cant get it out

Greetings Jaxho

Thank you for sharing @jaxho , I did indeed received a double order from Sweden about a month ago which I assume stems from the event you just described. Nice to learn how that came about!

 

[Jpowell]

Hi @caesar ,

You may or may not be aware that the vast majority of DACs actually already perform up sampling themselves. This makes server based up sampling more a matter of replacing the DAC up sampling algorithms by superior ones, which can be superior because a server can have a significant larger amount of processing resources available. If you feed a higher sampling rate into a DAC their internal up sampling algorithms are either bypassed or less "demanding" or less "harmful" filters are applied. A filter needing to provide a very steep cut off at say 21KHz for a 22.5KHz bandwidth signal (redbook / cd) is much harder to design without artefacts in the range below cutoff (audio range) then a filter for higher bandwidth signals. For example with DSD (SACD) at 2.8MHz or higher rates you can get away with a slow roloff filter at for example 100KHz. Now there is a lot more to this as you can apply very sophisticated noise shaping algorithms on up sampled signals which can push digital noise levels down to almost non existent and there are people specialised in designing these, like Jussi Laako of Signalyst HQPlayer and we have Karthick of PGGB now which is gaining popularity amongst our userbase fast. HQplayer and PGGB you can indeed use with/on the Extreme to up sample the signal before sending it to the DAC if you so desire.

For clarity these are the ways you can up sample with the Extreme:

1) Use Roon real-time up sampling
2) Use HQplayer real-time upsampling, HQPlayer can be used as an output to either Roon or our own TAS.
3) Perform offline up sampling, meaning up sample your stored files before playback, this is where PGGB is gaining ground fast. We are planning to integrate a real-time version of PGGB (optional of course) into our upcoming XDMS software which will be replacing TAS. But this will have to be added at a later stage as we are now working to get it out as fast as we can. The first version of XDMS will not support up sampling which leaves you with PGGB or HQPlayer offline up sampling as the only 2 options for that, for now.

Emile, my impression from Ed is that there are no plans to support HQplayer with XDMS. Is that still true? I ask only because of my issue with trying to find a workable solution to play back all of my MC files through Roon--> XDMS going forward.
Thanks.

 

[steve williams]

.
Soundstage opend up. Height, width and depth expanded. Tonal balance and dynamics- much better
So its easy to give this advice: if you cant buy it, dont listen to it!
One of the listerners had read a lot about Grimm and really wanted to buy it (before the shootout). He was uneasy in his chair, turning and sighing.
But in the end he desided to buy the Extreme. He said something like: now that i got it in my head, i cant get it out

once you hear the Extreme you can’t unhear it Then the Extreme plus the TAS USB card adds a dimension that I have yet to hear from any of its competition. And it’s only going to get better in the next few months

 

[microstrip]

(...) And it’s only going to get better in the next few months

Do you have something to share with us?

 

[steve williams]

Do you have something to share with us?

I don't but Emile in his posts here has told us what he is working on and what will be released. It's all in this thread

 

[RUIN*ish]

First Post
Ordered The Taiko Extreme a few days ago.. Very excited...
Marc

 

[7ryder]

Gentlemen,
The latest issue of TAS supposedly claims Linn now has the best server . They got it on their cover I think . $40K . Anybody here looking to switch? A couple of months ago, TAS hyped up and glamorized the wadax server as the BEST... and just as some customers placed their orders, but haven't even got them fulfilled, those guys are pushing a new best... Any owners here, looking to change/ upgrade to Linn?

just joking here

Kidding aside, looking at the poll at the top of this thread, most people are using USB (but not sure if the poll is comprehensive and up to date). Any particular reason for that?

I've never cared for USB, but what makes the USB implementation stellar in this product?

Also, Stereophile just awarded the Grimm MU1 server Digital of the Year award. The usually milquetoast John Atkinson kind of went nuts:

"Oh, my!" JA exclaimed (in writing) after hearing music made with data sent via the AES3 output. He had been listening to an early digital recording via the MU1's Ethernet connection and switched to AES3, upsampled to 176.4kHz. The re- cording now sounded "dramatically better." "The tonal balance was still warm, but the congestion was reduced, adding depth to the soundstage and increasing the separation between instruments and groups of instruments within that stage." "There was simply more there there with the AES/EBU outputs."

What is Grimm doing differently for their AES implementation that this product, if anything?

Thanks in advance

TAS got the description wrong, the new Linn KDSM is a network player, not a server. And, yes, it does sound pretty damn good!

 

[Taiko Audio]

Do you have something to share with us?

We're getting closer to releasing XDMS (Extreme Direct Media Server) which is replacing TAS (Taiko Audio Server). XDMS has been written from scratch and is 100% coded by us, does not use Logitech Media Server as a front end.

There will also be a network card, similar to the USB card upgrade, and a switch, that is however longer out due to parts shortages.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Emile, my impression from Ed is that there are no plans to support HQplayer with XDMS. Is that still true? I ask only because of my issue with trying to find a workable solution to play back all of my MC files through Roon--> XDMS going forward.
Thanks.

That is indeed true. We are going to integrate PGGB up sampling, but it will not be in the initial XDMS release.

 

[Taiko Audio]

First Post
Ordered The Taiko Extreme a few days ago.. Very excited...
Marc

Congratulations and welcome to the What's Best forum @Onthlam !

 

[dminches]

We're getting closer to releasing XDMS (Extreme Direct Media Server) which is replacing TAS (Taiko Audio Server). XDMS has been written from scratch and is 100% coded by us, does not use Logitech Media Server as a front end.

There will also be a network card, similar to the USB card upgrade, and a switch, that is however longer out due to parts shortages.

Emile, are you releasing the network card and switch as a set or will you release the network card first? (I can’t tell if both are delayed due to a parts shortage.)

 

[Addicted to hifi]

First Post
Ordered The Taiko Extreme a few days ago.. Very excited...
Marc

Congrats and welcome to wbf.

 

[ctydwn]

We're getting closer to releasing XDMS (Extreme Direct Media Server) which is replacing TAS (Taiko Audio Server). XDMS has been written from scratch and is 100% coded by us, does not use Logitech Media Server as a front end.

There will also be a network card, similar to the USB card upgrade, and a switch, that is however longer out due to parts shortages.

Emile is audio’s Santa. so exciting, makes me feel like a kid. Thanks to the team for all the hard work and the extreme ‘project’ that continues. Recent posts are a nice reminder of how remarkable the achievements are thus far.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Emile, are you releasing the network card and switch as a set or will you release the network card first? (I can’t tell if both are delayed due to a parts shortage.)

It looks like they’ll be available at the same time.

 

[microstrip]

We're getting closer to releasing XDMS (Extreme Direct Media Server) which is replacing TAS (Taiko Audio Server). XDMS has been written from scratch and is 100% coded by us, does not use Logitech Media Server as a front end.

Great. How will you carry the distribution of XDMS? Are you going through beta users or immediately to the user version?