Our components dump a lot of noise on the AC. This may do even more harm than what’s coming in from the mains. I believe regenerators aim to only address the mains problem and do little to nothing to address the noise from our components.
The best plug in filter ever!
- Thread starter thomask
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Thanks for taking the time, Highstream...look forward to hearing more about your experience after the next 50-100 hours.
How does this happen, exactly?
Take a linestage preamplifier, for example. The component is plugged into an AC wall outlet for power.
How is that preamplifier dumping noise onto the AC line into which it is plugged?
Are you suggesting the preamplifier is generating EMI/RFI which is absorbed into the AC line and not neutralized by the shield around in-wall wiring which is grounded to earth at the electrical subpanel?
Are you suggesting there is inductive coupling between the preamplifier and the AC line which is feeding noise back into the AC line?
What are you talking about, exactly, please?
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Nothing I would think when it comes to component generated noise unless there is noise filtration built into the regenerator.
I have a PS 10 Powerplant. It is a strange piece of equipment. There are adjustments for Sine wave vs Multiform wave, voltage, something called Phase Tuning and something called Multiwave Strength and a mode for High Regulations vs Low Distortion.
Fiddling with these "effects" each can AND DOES change some quality of the sound from the speakers.
I find it a bit disturbing that there is so much that needs to be adjusted to get the best sound if it was doing what is was supposed to in the first place, which I think is to present a clean near perfect AC to the outputs.
Additionally, I had two SMPS's together on one of the pairs of outputs and found they were grossly polluting the rest of the outputs of the PS 10 with noise. Moving them off the dedicated line feeding the PS10 made an immediate improvement. I have all my digital gear on the PS 10.
Fiddling with these "effects" each can AND DOES change some quality of the sound from the speakers.
I find it a bit disturbing that there is so much that needs to be adjusted to get the best sound if it was doing what is was supposed to in the first place, which I think is to present a clean near perfect AC to the outputs.
Additionally, I had two SMPS's together on one of the pairs of outputs and found they were grossly polluting the rest of the outputs of the PS 10 with noise. Moving them off the dedicated line feeding the PS10 made an immediate improvement. I have all my digital gear on the PS 10.
Shunyata does a good job of covering the basics in this. Quote:
”Electronic power supplies don’t pull current in a linear fashion like a light bulb, fan or simple motor would. The full-wave bridge rectifiers and digital switching supplies in electronics draw hard on the AC line, pulling instantaneous bursts of current off the highest and lowest peaks of the sine-wave. This happens within milliseconds in order to fill power supplies storage capacitors. Both full wave bridge rectifiers and digital switching supplies create a significant amount of noise during this process that extends in frequency to the 50th harmonic of the line frequency. What this means, is that from the perspective of power-supply, AC transmission is a near-field, high-frequency occurrence not a low frequency 50-60Hz event.“
Also see this. Quote:
MISCONCEPTION #4: There is a tremendous amount of electrical interference and EMI coming from outside the home that we need to protect our equipment from. This implies that we need some sort of power conditioner or filter to protect the equipment.
Answer: Most of the EMI that affects the audio quality of a system is generated by the audio components themselves. EM waves that travel through space dissipate in power as the square of the distance from the source and very high frequencies that propagate through the power circuit do not survive for long. Power lines present a high impedance to Mhz and Ghz signals due to the relatively high inductance of power lines.
A primary source of audible sonic degradation is caused by the power supplies. Most components use FWBR (full wave bridge rectifier) power supplies that generate an incredible amount of transient noise when the rectifiers switch on and off. The design of a power cord can significantly affect the reactance of these signals within the power supply. Because the power cord is part of the primary winding of the power transformer, the transition between the various metals used in a PC can cause EM reflections and diode-like rectification of the noise impulses as they propagate away from the power supply. If the PC presents a high impedance to these signals they will be reflected back into the power supply where they will intermodulate increasing the high frequency noise levels of the component. Most power supply filters are ineffective at blocking very high frequency noise components and much of it is passed through to the DC rails. The sonic effects of this include: high background noise levels, blurred or slurred transients and a general lack of clarity and purity of the sound or visual image.
Not sure where this discussion leaves me. I did try the Puron in a Home Depot 12" 12-gauge power cord with three outlets, plugged into the P15 outlet where the TV has been. Better tone, but all the other good things with the Puron I mentioned earlier disappeared. Is there any reason why a power strip might be better? What I don't get is if a Nordost QK1 doesn't get hung up on the P15 when plugged into the same the wall outlet, why would the Puron?
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When I plug in all the components of my system to the power conditioner (Puritan PSM156) I hear noise in the speakers. When I plug the amplifier in his own wall outlet from a separate line the noise decreases drastically. Not sure how much it is linked to the explanation stated by @kennyb123
It might be worthwhile to reach out directly to Mark at verifiaudio and discuss your specific PS Audio unit and other expereinces vis a vis the Puron. Hopefully he can give you the insights you need
highstream,
I believe your PS regenerator is re-working the AC and by doing that it is minimizing what the Puron does. But that is only my opinion, more a guess actually because within my system the Puron's work great! BTW, I was not too impressed with the Nordost units, tried them all.
As facten stated, reach out to Mark perhaps he can shed more info on the Puron usage and positioning.
ozzy
I believe your PS regenerator is re-working the AC and by doing that it is minimizing what the Puron does. But that is only my opinion, more a guess actually because within my system the Puron's work great! BTW, I was not too impressed with the Nordost units, tried them all.
As facten stated, reach out to Mark perhaps he can shed more info on the Puron usage and positioning.
ozzy
A regenerator is basically an audiophile amplifier. An audiophile amplifier generates an AC signal that is of varying frequencies and varying voltage amplitudes. The regenerator is set to a fixed frequency or series of fixed frequencies and a fixed voltage amplitud. The multiwave options could very well be mucking with the Puron.
I agree with the advice to reach out to Mark,
I spoke with Mark and first of all he said that there are many P15 and P20 Puron users. His recommendation was that DC on the AC line might be involved. He was the creator of Core Technologies power conditioners, now owned and sold by Walt at Underwood HiFi in Hawaii. Short of one of those units, he suggested Wyred’s conditioner, which has DC snubbing. I do have measured DC on the line and a bit of hum from at least the Lampi GG dac (it could be a ground loop instead). Mark thinks the Wyred has enough power to be used in serial with the P15, but I need to check on that.
In the meantime, there’s been a flipping between the Puron and QK1 in results. When I initially wrote, all my power cords and IC’s in the audio line were WyWires Diamonds, save one PAD coax. Since then, I’ve introduced a QSA-Lanedri Gamma Infinite pc between wall and P15 and the same model XLR’s from VAC preamp to ATC SCM50 floorstanders, both fully burned in (they are as advertised). Now, it’s the QK1 that is the cleaner one, but without its previous warmth, while the Puron now has a bit of warmth, but is noticeably less clear. Go figure. A (used) Nordost QV2 has also just arrived that on first listen didn’t add anything, and alone didn’t match the QK1. Maybe it needs a bit of time and a better multi-outlet plug,
In the meantime, there’s been a flipping between the Puron and QK1 in results. When I initially wrote, all my power cords and IC’s in the audio line were WyWires Diamonds, save one PAD coax. Since then, I’ve introduced a QSA-Lanedri Gamma Infinite pc between wall and P15 and the same model XLR’s from VAC preamp to ATC SCM50 floorstanders, both fully burned in (they are as advertised). Now, it’s the QK1 that is the cleaner one, but without its previous warmth, while the Puron now has a bit of warmth, but is noticeably less clear. Go figure. A (used) Nordost QV2 has also just arrived that on first listen didn’t add anything, and alone didn’t match the QK1. Maybe it needs a bit of time and a better multi-outlet plug,
If you get a little Entech powerline noise analyzer you can objectively measure & quantify the AC "noise" from any electrical component.
I don't think noise is the right word, I'd prefer to call it AC signal degradation. Some components are more quiet than others... but component-to-component AC signal degradation is a real thing.
I use AUTH line filter EMX 506 and AUTH line filter EMD 503 with every SMPS in the chain:
Looks like this:
Torben
Looks like this:
Torben
Nice! I I have an extra iFi iPower Elite power supply sitting around doing nothing. Where would you say is the best sonic benefit for that between a server, a router, or a modem?
Thanks! Have you ever peeked into those AUTH units? Noise filter caps like the Shunyata Venom?
I've got an iFi iPurifier on the line from my linear power supply to my little server hard drive. Should I remove it and put it on FMC/Switch/Router/Modem?
I did add a second Puron in my system in addition to the 3 LessLoss firewall 640X and I am amazed. The second Puron has been in the system for 6 hours now and it has opened the sound stage and the background is really black and the detail is amazing. More to come and maybe a third one will be in order in a month or so.
When using AUTH there is no need for other filter caps. So I can't tell what would be best for you.
Torben
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