Interesting.
Which part is the rack - the record holder?
To rinse do you change the tank water and turn off the pump or ... ?
tima's DIY RCM
- Thread starter tima
- Start date
Interesting.
Which part is the rack - the record holder?
To rinse do you change the tank water and turn off the pump or ... ?
I'm not sure your first question. The part that spins and holds records in the ultrasonic is from this seller. But he seems to have stopped.
For rinsing I put the record on the Squeaky Clean (mine has a pad just the size of label) and spray some distilled water onto it, then vacuum that off. It's still wet unless you run it for awhile under the vacuum but air dry seems better unless I put something in the water for less static.
This is the rack for drying I got. It's meant to just hold albums, which maybe I'll get another in the future for that.
I just turn the pump on between cleanings to get clean water for the next albums.
Okay, now I understand. I use a dish drainer to hold the album covers and sleeves
How long does it take you to clean a record if you put it through your full cycle?
Depends on the spit roaster setting. It's adjustable for different speeds I have on a sheet. For example 2rpm at 6 minutes. Then I can pull the discs off of the spit roast and put on another 3 while I do the rinse. I'm probably around 12-15 minutes per 3 records. I'm certainly not trying to rush it, and I don't always want to do a lot at once because I prefer listening to them
Hi Tima and everyone,
I have posted in this thread before, but seeing Tima’s new pics has led me to post this update. I have made changes, many of which are more in line with other posters. There is also new information here that may be helpful.
If you are interested, my previous posts begin with post #20
I have not changed my final Loricraft cleaning/rinsing strategy which is key to the most wonderful sound available on vinyl (IMHO). For those who might disagree, try it and you will likely change your mind.
A brief list of changes:
I switched from Everclear (grain alcohol) to MG Chemicals 824-1L IPA. You can buy ten liters here for $12.68 @ https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/mg-chemicals/824-1L/9181284
I changed from two filters to one and reduced the number of hoses and fittings.
I changed my standard cleaning cycle to 50 minutes at either 80 Hz, or I use the Elmasonic 37/80 Hz cycle.
I have lowered the temperature range for cleaning to 30-40 degrees C.
I changed the way I removed the water/IPA after cleaning to a record spinner that I made.
It is essentially a 4000 rpm drill and an oil drip tray.
I discovered quickly that records need to spin at 4000 rpm to dry them quickly (< 30 seconds). This can create imbalance problems with some records, so you should proceed with caution if you follow this approach. I can add further details if anyone is interested.
After drying the records, I clean/rinse them again on my Loricraft. This is about 10 minutes per disc.
That’s about it, but I left out the logic behind all of this, so here is where you need to fasten your seat belts:
I have been washing records with various methods since about 1980. One fact I have always recognized is that alcohol, while it is an excellent cleaner, or probably because it’s an excellent cleaner, also leaves a dryer, less lubricated surface: it changes the coefficient of friction of the vinyl. Every cleaning fluid I have ever used leaves a slightly different friction surface for the stylus as revealed by a different sound.
To me, an alcohol cleaner results in a more brittle, thinner, more edgy sound. It can be a subtile or dramatic change, but it is always, IMO, worse and less like the original sound.
Somewhere along my path, I discovered L’Art du Son, and began using it in my VPI 17F cleaner. My frustration with record cleaning also increased, because the VPI only worked reasonably well for the first side of the first record. After that, the felt strips on the vacuum tube were dirty and records sounded worse.
Armed with a dozen or so tubes, a toothbrush, and a big pan of distilled water to clean the tubes in, I limped along for a few years. Until I discovered Loricraft! Now my records were not only cleaner, but were consistently clean!
The Ultrasonic then entered the picture, and the real change with ultrasonic is that the cleaning process is far more thorough and more consistent than other methods.
I wanted to continue using L’Art to avoid the effects of alcohol, so I did the L’Art after the ultrasonic.
Meanwhile, as my music system got better, I discovered that while L’Art sounded good, the sound was veiled in comparison with a new disc.
I started thinning the L’Art further than the recommendation of one gallon of distilled water per bottle of L’Art. After a lengthy series of experiments, I determined that FIVE gallons of distilled water per bottle of L’Art were required to eliminate any audible veiling of the sound. Fortunately, this still left a record surface that had none of the negative effects of alcohol, and sounded more natural, more analog if you will, than a new (washed or unwashed) record. Five gallons is a reduction of 172:1. I determined that there was a subtile but consistent sound change between this and 168:1. Again, doubters can do their own experiments. (I have my Nomex britches on now, so fire away)
The mechanics for doing this is to mix up the original one gallon of L’Art, and then, as required, thin it with one part of the mix and four parts of additional distilled water.
There are additional advantages of using this system: I’m not concerned with absolute cleanliness of the ultrasonic fluid. I rely on wiping or vacuuming dust off records before I start, and the 0.3 micron filter does the rest. I only change the fluid every six months or so.
The Loricraft L’Art provides three final benefits: cleaning, rinsing and surface treatment.
I can do five times as many records with one $50 bottle of L’Art.
I do not use any surfactant in the ultrasonic. I can hear the effects of surfactants in the mix and I don’t like it. In addition the percentage of surfactant in the fluid continues to increase and the effects worsen.
I have discovered, however, that maintaining a specific percentage of IPA in the ultrasonic bath is more difficult than it first appeared.
I purchased a hydrometer for measuring small percentages of IPA in water:
https://www.belart.com/h-b-b61809-4000-durac-0-50-isopropyl-alcohol-hydrometer.html
or:
https://www.amazon.com/Percent-Isop...0%+isopropyl+hydrometer&qid=1612722148&sr=8-2
I had a couple of other hydrometers (none were accurate enough) before I found this one.
I was trying to maintain a 5% IPA level in the water. The initial mix was no issue, and the hydrometer measured 5%.
I mixed up a reserve supply of 5% mix to add to the fluid in the ultrasonic as it evaporated. (I keep a piece of Saran Wrap over the tank when it is not in use.) But the level of IPA dropped to 3 or 4% after a few days.
I changed the premix to 40% and the percentage of IPA in the tank went UP. So now I am at about 25% and the 5% mix is holding its own. YMMV on this
There is more that could be said here, but I think I have hit the high points. If you are still with me after all this, thanks for sticking it out. I hope to meet you at the next L’Art Convention.
I have posted in this thread before, but seeing Tima’s new pics has led me to post this update. I have made changes, many of which are more in line with other posters. There is also new information here that may be helpful.
If you are interested, my previous posts begin with post #20
I have not changed my final Loricraft cleaning/rinsing strategy which is key to the most wonderful sound available on vinyl (IMHO). For those who might disagree, try it and you will likely change your mind.
A brief list of changes:
I switched from Everclear (grain alcohol) to MG Chemicals 824-1L IPA. You can buy ten liters here for $12.68 @ https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/mg-chemicals/824-1L/9181284
I changed from two filters to one and reduced the number of hoses and fittings.
I changed my standard cleaning cycle to 50 minutes at either 80 Hz, or I use the Elmasonic 37/80 Hz cycle.
I have lowered the temperature range for cleaning to 30-40 degrees C.
I changed the way I removed the water/IPA after cleaning to a record spinner that I made.
It is essentially a 4000 rpm drill and an oil drip tray.
I discovered quickly that records need to spin at 4000 rpm to dry them quickly (< 30 seconds). This can create imbalance problems with some records, so you should proceed with caution if you follow this approach. I can add further details if anyone is interested.
After drying the records, I clean/rinse them again on my Loricraft. This is about 10 minutes per disc.
That’s about it, but I left out the logic behind all of this, so here is where you need to fasten your seat belts:
I have been washing records with various methods since about 1980. One fact I have always recognized is that alcohol, while it is an excellent cleaner, or probably because it’s an excellent cleaner, also leaves a dryer, less lubricated surface: it changes the coefficient of friction of the vinyl. Every cleaning fluid I have ever used leaves a slightly different friction surface for the stylus as revealed by a different sound.
To me, an alcohol cleaner results in a more brittle, thinner, more edgy sound. It can be a subtile or dramatic change, but it is always, IMO, worse and less like the original sound.
Somewhere along my path, I discovered L’Art du Son, and began using it in my VPI 17F cleaner. My frustration with record cleaning also increased, because the VPI only worked reasonably well for the first side of the first record. After that, the felt strips on the vacuum tube were dirty and records sounded worse.
Armed with a dozen or so tubes, a toothbrush, and a big pan of distilled water to clean the tubes in, I limped along for a few years. Until I discovered Loricraft! Now my records were not only cleaner, but were consistently clean!
The Ultrasonic then entered the picture, and the real change with ultrasonic is that the cleaning process is far more thorough and more consistent than other methods.
I wanted to continue using L’Art to avoid the effects of alcohol, so I did the L’Art after the ultrasonic.
Meanwhile, as my music system got better, I discovered that while L’Art sounded good, the sound was veiled in comparison with a new disc.
I started thinning the L’Art further than the recommendation of one gallon of distilled water per bottle of L’Art. After a lengthy series of experiments, I determined that FIVE gallons of distilled water per bottle of L’Art were required to eliminate any audible veiling of the sound. Fortunately, this still left a record surface that had none of the negative effects of alcohol, and sounded more natural, more analog if you will, than a new (washed or unwashed) record. Five gallons is a reduction of 172:1. I determined that there was a subtile but consistent sound change between this and 168:1. Again, doubters can do their own experiments. (I have my Nomex britches on now, so fire away)
The mechanics for doing this is to mix up the original one gallon of L’Art, and then, as required, thin it with one part of the mix and four parts of additional distilled water.
There are additional advantages of using this system: I’m not concerned with absolute cleanliness of the ultrasonic fluid. I rely on wiping or vacuuming dust off records before I start, and the 0.3 micron filter does the rest. I only change the fluid every six months or so.
The Loricraft L’Art provides three final benefits: cleaning, rinsing and surface treatment.
I can do five times as many records with one $50 bottle of L’Art.
I do not use any surfactant in the ultrasonic. I can hear the effects of surfactants in the mix and I don’t like it. In addition the percentage of surfactant in the fluid continues to increase and the effects worsen.
I have discovered, however, that maintaining a specific percentage of IPA in the ultrasonic bath is more difficult than it first appeared.
I purchased a hydrometer for measuring small percentages of IPA in water:
https://www.belart.com/h-b-b61809-4000-durac-0-50-isopropyl-alcohol-hydrometer.html
or:
https://www.amazon.com/Percent-Isop...0%+isopropyl+hydrometer&qid=1612722148&sr=8-2
I had a couple of other hydrometers (none were accurate enough) before I found this one.
I was trying to maintain a 5% IPA level in the water. The initial mix was no issue, and the hydrometer measured 5%.
I mixed up a reserve supply of 5% mix to add to the fluid in the ultrasonic as it evaporated. (I keep a piece of Saran Wrap over the tank when it is not in use.) But the level of IPA dropped to 3 or 4% after a few days.
I changed the premix to 40% and the percentage of IPA in the tank went UP. So now I am at about 25% and the 5% mix is holding its own. YMMV on this
There is more that could be said here, but I think I have hit the high points. If you are still with me after all this, thanks for sticking it out. I hope to meet you at the next L’Art Convention.
Thanks for the update. I am interested in the drying details since that is the only part of my process that I would like to improve. Currently, I let them air dry which works pretty well.
Do you have an concerns about the flammability of the solution with 5% IPA?
Have you considered just having a tank filled with distilled water to rinse the LPs after the wash cycle?
Hi dminches,
The spinner/slinger is more consistent than air drying.
This works well and quickly. No dust or lint.
5% IPA is the maximum. The percentage drops with evaporation.
I don’t need a water wash with using L’Art. Records don’t sound as good without L’Art. This is the most important part of my message.
This is the drill I bought:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004RH2F/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
The oil pan:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000Q69590/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
This is the FastLock collar:
https://shop.sdp-si.com/catalog/product/?id=S25FLY-0250
Two of these pulleys:
https://shop.sdp-si.com/catalog/product/?id=A_6Z10-0123008
(It looks as if they are having supply problems; these things were in stock when I ordered)
Padding to protect the labels:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0773CLB3R/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Stainless steel shaft:
https://www.ondrivesus.com/stainless-steel-and-steel-shafting/undersize-diameters/gs2497-110
Put the shaft in the drill and locate where the ball bearings of the FastLock collar sit against the shaft. Take a 1/8” diameter file and file a groove about 0.010” deep for the balls to “pop” into. Otherwise it will not work at 4000 RPM.
Get this brass tubing:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07VLNMCRC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Find the piece that is ¼ inch I.D. It will have an O.D. that fits the record hole. Cut off a piece about 3/8” long. If you don’t do this, all records will be badly out of balance. Ask me how I know.
You need a spring and plywood and screws. You need to make a trigger so you can operate the drill manually (best for safety).
The front view. Push in the trigger on the right to turn it on. 4000 rpm. Release to stop.
If there are other detail questions about the spinner/slinger, please send me a PM.
Best,
Don
Last edited:
Just to reiterate what Redcars has written. I follow exactly this regime with the exception that with my 240v 50hz mains in the UK I get one revolution every 15 minutes in the 5% IPA. This means my 50 minute cycle is giving me slightly more than three complete revolutions.
As he recommends, I have found the L'Art rinse cycle is critical to the best sound. Whether it is acting as a lubricant as he suggests or whether something else is happening I don't know and don't care. It makes a difference. 1:172 dilution IS best.
Thanks for the update Don, I appreciate your taking the time to show us the changes you've made.
You and I had a discussion about your techniques along with use of L'Art du Son in this thread back in 2019. Folks who are following can read most of this starting at post #44. I see you took my suggestion to use the MG Chemicals 82-L 99% Isopropyl Alcohol. rather than Everclear and also to hold the temperature down. I trust those are working out for you. Sounds like most of your practice then is reflected in your recent post.
Of course we have different approaches wrt L'Art du Son. To recap a little bit:
I gather you've experimented further with the concentration of L'Art du Son. If my understanding is correct you find your concentration of IPA gives records "a slightly thinner/brighter/dryer sound, but I don’t care because I’m going to L’Art them afterwards. 30 minutes revolving in the ultrasonic is good for most records that are new, or near mint, or cleaned before." So part of your reason for using L'Art is to mitigate what you hear from using alcohol on records, and part of your reason for using L'Art is to change the coefficient of friction between the stylus and the record surface. And you like the sonic results of doing that.
We differ here. I don't want to add anything to the record surface as part of the cleaning process or change the interface between the record and stylus with an additive.. But that's okay - different people trying different stuff.
As you discovered, the concentration of IPA in a tank of water reduces over time. I'm no chemist but I've read that alcohol molecules can get between water molecules loosening the hydrogen bond in the water meaning less energy is needed to make the water dissemble back into the air. IPA evaporates at room temperature which happens to the alcohol on the water's surface.
At present I am no longer using 99% pure IPA in the cleaning solution, or any alcohol. And unlike you I do use Ilford Ilfotol as a surfactant. Previously I was using 0.9 tablespoon (~13 ml) with 1.3 cups IPA. Since I am now using a rinse tank, I am experiementing with an increased amount of Ilfotol, ranging from 1.1 tblspn (~16.6 ml) to 1.3 tblspn (19.5 ml). This was part of a suggestion by Neil Antin. I have no conclusions yet.
Thanks for the description and parts list for your drill-driven drying spinner. I continue to air dry, now after the filtered rinse cycle.
And keep those Nomex pants on - IPA is highly flammable.
You and I had a discussion about your techniques along with use of L'Art du Son in this thread back in 2019. Folks who are following can read most of this starting at post #44. I see you took my suggestion to use the MG Chemicals 82-L 99% Isopropyl Alcohol. rather than Everclear and also to hold the temperature down. I trust those are working out for you. Sounds like most of your practice then is reflected in your recent post.
Of course we have different approaches wrt L'Art du Son. To recap a little bit:
I gather you've experimented further with the concentration of L'Art du Son. If my understanding is correct you find your concentration of IPA gives records "a slightly thinner/brighter/dryer sound, but I don’t care because I’m going to L’Art them afterwards. 30 minutes revolving in the ultrasonic is good for most records that are new, or near mint, or cleaned before." So part of your reason for using L'Art is to mitigate what you hear from using alcohol on records, and part of your reason for using L'Art is to change the coefficient of friction between the stylus and the record surface. And you like the sonic results of doing that.
We differ here. I don't want to add anything to the record surface as part of the cleaning process or change the interface between the record and stylus with an additive.. But that's okay - different people trying different stuff.
As you discovered, the concentration of IPA in a tank of water reduces over time. I'm no chemist but I've read that alcohol molecules can get between water molecules loosening the hydrogen bond in the water meaning less energy is needed to make the water dissemble back into the air. IPA evaporates at room temperature which happens to the alcohol on the water's surface.
At present I am no longer using 99% pure IPA in the cleaning solution, or any alcohol. And unlike you I do use Ilford Ilfotol as a surfactant. Previously I was using 0.9 tablespoon (~13 ml) with 1.3 cups IPA. Since I am now using a rinse tank, I am experiementing with an increased amount of Ilfotol, ranging from 1.1 tblspn (~16.6 ml) to 1.3 tblspn (19.5 ml). This was part of a suggestion by Neil Antin. I have no conclusions yet.
Thanks for the description and parts list for your drill-driven drying spinner. I continue to air dry, now after the filtered rinse cycle.
And keep those Nomex pants on - IPA is highly flammable.
Thanks for participating, chop. I remember Harry Pearson was a fan of L'Art du Son.
Its a very interesting topic. I am indebted to Redcars in helping me understand how to get the cleanest and best souding records through the medium of US cleaning.
FWIW, After extensive experimentation I would describe the effect of the vital L'Art rinse cycle (I use an old, modified Moth vacuum machine with tape on the vacuum slit rather than the too easily contaminated felt pads) as removing a certain hardness to the sound which is always there with just 5% isoprop cleaning. Point is that the L'Art is for rinsing not recleaning.
The benefit to such a weak concentration as 1:172 is that it isn't materially altering the sound of the clean record, just (kind of) easing the stylus through the grooves. At least thats how I would describe what I hear. (OK, if I can hear something different it must be "materially altering" but its as minor change as it can be, IMO.
I have tried flow agent, Ilford Ilfotol, and can always hear it. Perhaps the L'Art is doing a similar job as the Ilford Ilfotol but just sounds better!
FWIW, After extensive experimentation I would describe the effect of the vital L'Art rinse cycle (I use an old, modified Moth vacuum machine with tape on the vacuum slit rather than the too easily contaminated felt pads) as removing a certain hardness to the sound which is always there with just 5% isoprop cleaning. Point is that the L'Art is for rinsing not recleaning.
The benefit to such a weak concentration as 1:172 is that it isn't materially altering the sound of the clean record, just (kind of) easing the stylus through the grooves. At least thats how I would describe what I hear. (OK, if I can hear something different it must be "materially altering" but its as minor change as it can be, IMO.
I have tried flow agent, Ilford Ilfotol, and can always hear it. Perhaps the L'Art is doing a similar job as the Ilford Ilfotol but just sounds better!
There are multiple ways to approach record cleaning. My approach is to try to end up with an LP that has no residual materials left behind. That’s why I use the formulation recommended by Tim and Neil Antin, who posts over at the Steve Hoffman forums, and use a rinse cycle. In the end we have to all do what we think sounds best. I have used L’Art in pre-cleaning steps but have always used some rinse cycle afterwards.
Thanks for sharing all your information.
Thanks for sharing all your information.
There is a lot to read but hopefully this link will take you to where it starts. Neil is extremely technical from the chemistry perspective.
And a really nice guy too.
The Ultrasonic vinyl cleaner owners thread
Yeah, I really appreciate everyone here and their contributions. I finally built my US RCM and it really has been doing a great job. I was quite...
forums.stevehoffman.tv
What did you order?
The Kuzma RD is a rotisserie - it includes a stand that holds records on a spindle and rotates them using a motor that affixes to the stand. It includes pucks to separate the records on the spindle. It includes a stand to hold the spindle for mounting records. It is made mostly from stainless steel. The RD is not an ultrasonic tank. Read post #1 in this thread that references three articles. Article one shows the RD parts and its assembly. Nicly made piece of gear.
Scroll to the comment section below the article to read the discussion between Neil Antin and myself here:
Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records - The Vinyl Press
Neil Antin’s Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records applies processes for precision cleaning of critical systems to more prosaic task of cleaning LPs.
thevinylpress.com
Download Antin's lengthy white paper 2nd edition at this link:
Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records-2nd Edition - The Vinyl Press
Precision Aqueous Cleaning of Vinyl Records is exhaustive of the science in cleaning a vinyl record, covering manual, vacuum and ultrasonic methods.
thevinylpress.com
Yes, I agree - the topic of record cleaning is interesting. We are still in the learning and discovery phase.
I don't know if there is logic here or not: if you don't use IPA, you don't need L'Art du Son? L'Art is an additive.
If you rinse the record there should be no surfactant on it. Ilfotol does not bind to vinyl.
If you use a vacuum style machine, you might want to consider AIVS products:
The Audio Beat - Audio Intelligent Vinyl Solutions Record-Cleaning Products
read audio reviews, ratings, and user opinions on audio equipment before you buy an audio system
www.theaudiobeat.com
I though I ordered a complete machine. The stand with motor, rack, spindle and pucks. All I got was the spindle with pucks and a stand to put the spindle in to dry the records. I have my own ultrasonic. I still have a slow motor used to make fishing rods that has been used to spin the records in the past. I was not going to purchase the Kuzma as I figured $1400 for a motor was a lot. The pumps and filter are the real trick to this project.
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