tima's DIY RCM

[Neil.Antin]

@tima & @Stacore,

I went back and reviewed the Flashpoint, Surface Tension and Boiling Point of Water+Ethanol. There are some minor differences in Flashpoint and Surface Tension, but not of much consequence (I will add the data if there is a 3rd Ed of the book).. BUT, there is major difference in the boiling point at the lower concentrations, enough that use of ethanol to improve drying is not valid. Note that the attached graph is not to uniform scale - the X-axis is expanded between 0-10% ethanol to better see the data. EDIT - graph updated with better ethanol data.

 

[Stacore]

Thank you Neil! You convinced me earlier not to use any alco in the rinse tank not to diminish the cavitation power.

Cheers,

 

[Stacore]

I'm sure everyone has been there but I'm constantly surprised how much dirt there is in the vinyls. Even with my vac pre-clean of each side, which does extract quite some dirt (judging by the waste cleaner), the cleaner in the US washing tank became murky pretty quickly - after some 30 or so vinyls. TDS still measures low at 3ppm but that's just part of the contamination. The filtering is still my old 0.5um nominal, I run about 3-10min between cleaning cycles (during the US cleaning the filtering is off not to compromise the cavitation) and then 5-6h after each cleaning session.
Neil, do you think that a more intense pre-clean liquid might help extract more dirt? Now it is 5% IPA + 0.05% Tergitol S7. Would higher % IPA and/or S7 make sense?
The rinse tank to the contrary stays and measures very clean - still transparent, not foamy, and 2ppm TDS after some 80 vinyls without a filtration (at the moment) and with a small 6l tank. The pre-clean + main US must be extracting all the dirt.

Cheers,

 

[Neil.Antin]

I'm sure everyone has been there but I'm constantly surprised how much dirt there is in the vinyls. Even with my vac pre-clean of each side, which does extract quite some dirt (judging by the waste cleaner), the cleaner in the US washing tank became murky pretty quickly - after some 30 or so vinyls. TDS still measures low at 3ppm but that's just part of the contamination. The filtering is still my old 0.5um nominal, I run about 3-10min between cleaning cycles (during the US cleaning the filtering is off not to compromise the cavitation) and then 5-6h after each cleaning session.
Neil, do you think that a more intense pre-clean liquid might help extract more dirt? Now it is 5% IPA + 0.05% Tergitol S7. Would higher % IPA and/or S7 make sense?
The rinse tank to the contrary stays and measures very clean - still transparent, not foamy, and 2ppm TDS after some 80 vinyls without a filtration (at the moment) and with a small 6l tank. The pre-clean + main US must be extracting all the dirt.

Cheers,

Jarek,

Can you easily buy this - Alconox 1232 Liquinox Anionic Critical Cleaning Liquid Detergent 1 qt Bottle | eBay? If so buy it and use it at 0.5% with your vac-RCM for the following vac-RCM cleaning procedure (same as I address Chaptwr XIII):

Step 1: Pre-clean #1 use Alconox Liquinox at 0.05% vac-RCM
Step 2: Rinse DW vac-RCM
Step 3: Pre-clean- #2 use Tergitol at 0.05% vac-RCM. (with the Alconox pre-clean, no need for the IPA)
Step 4: Rinse DW vac-RCM.

Proceed to UT tank for final clean.

Note once you get the better filter the haze/murkiness may go away. Your current 0.5um filter may allow many particles <5-10um to pass through. These small particles can in high enough concentration produce the turbidity you are seeing. But, being nonionic, no TDS effect.

FYI - There should be no reason to run the pump/ filter for 5-6H. Assuming the worst - the pump is only 0.5 lpm, the tank filtration 1/2-life is (0.693)(6L)/0.5 lpm) = 8.3 min. After 1H, (60 min/8.3 min) = 7.22 half-lives = (1-(0.5^7.2)) = 99.3% has been filtered. General rule of thumb is to get acceptable filtration you want 5 half-lives (for a recirculated tank being filtered) to achieve ~97% efficiency. This analysis is discussed XIV.15.1 of the book.

Good luck,
Neil

Edit - if you cannot easily get the Alconox Liquinox - you could try this HANNL X2000 Record Cleaning Fluid 1000ml | HANNL Vinylcare. I am not sure what's in-it, but the company is reputable, in Germany - so within EU.

 

[Stacore]

Thank you Neil. To keep the process manageable, I'd prefer to use locally available, possibly non-exotic chemistry and stay with a 1-step pre-clean. A better vacuum like Keith Monks / Loricraft would probably help extracting more dirt during the pre-clean but would also extend the total time per LP. If there is no quick and simple trick, like adding more IPA or S7, I'm staying with my current procedure, hoping the new 0.2um filter will prolong the cleaner life.

Edit: I'm sure it has been discussed, would multi-stage filtering bring any benefits? E.g. cascaded 0.5um + 0.2um

Cheers,

 

[Neil.Antin]

Thank you Neil. To keep the process manageable, I'd prefer to use locally available, possibly non-exotic chemistry and stay with a 1-step pre-clean. A better vacuum like Keith Monks / Loricraft would probably help extracting more dirt during the pre-clean but would also extend the total time per LP. If there is no quick and simple trick, like adding more IPA or S7, I'm staying with my current procedure, hoping the new 0.2um filter will prolong the cleaner life.

Edit: I'm sure it has been discussed, would multi-stage filtering bring any benefits? E.g. cascaded 0.5um + 0.2um

Cheers,

Jarek,

Adding more Tergitol is not going help, the 0.05% is already 10X the critical micelle concentration (CMC). To improve cleaning at the vac-RCM, you need anionic surfactants that are more aggressive detergents than just the Tergitol nonionic surfactant. The Alconox is a blend of anionic & nonionic surfactants. Every hand dish detergent is a blend of anionic & nonionic surfactants, but then a lot of other stuff that has nothing to with cleaning.

However, as I wrote in the book - Table II - A cheaper alternative could be a hand dishwashing detergent that is not colored (no dyes), un-scented (no fragrance) and contains no anti-bacterial agents. These will tend to have a number of ingredients that have nothing to do with cleaning such as thickeners, but diluted-down into a spray bottle can work as a pre-cleaner. And in Chapter III, Section III EU/UK, NOTE: Most thickened dishwashing detergents are about 25% active so the dilution formula is as follows for a 0.5%/L solution: (1000 mL) x (0.005)/(0.25) = 20 mL/L.

A 0.5um nominal rated filter used as a pre-filter can extend the life of the 0.2um absolute filter. To do it right, you would monitor the pressure-drop across the 0.5um pre-filter. You could try a clear housing for the 0.5um and replace when it discolors - being cheap, you replace more frequently.

Neil

 

[Stacore]

Neil, these are the Alconox products locally available:

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/PL/pl/search/alconox?focus=products&page=1&perPage=30&sort=relevance&term=alconox&type=product

Edit I guess the Liquinox is the right stuff although there is no "1232" number that I can see? https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/PL/pl/product/aldrich/z742916? If so, I order it

 

[Neil.Antin]

Neil, these are the Alconox products locally available:

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/PL/pl/search/alconox?focus=products&page=1&perPage=30&sort=relevance&term=alconox&type=product

Edit I guess the Liquinox is the right stuff although there is no "1232" number that I can see? https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/PL/pl/product/aldrich/z742916? If so, I order it

Jarek:

The "1232" is the designator for the 1-qt size. EDIT Liquinox® phosphate-free liquid detergent 947 mL packs (sigmaaldrich.com). Otherwise you got the right stuff. 1-quuart is enough to clean ~5000 records, while 1-gallon is enough to clean about 20,000-records (LOL). The company advertises a 2-yr shelf life. When not in use - keep it capped and store in cool-dark place (i.e, under a sink) and it should last for many years.

At 1-2% it makes a good floor cleaner and I have added bleach (i.e, Clorox) to make a good wood deck cleaner - it mixes fine with tap water (but use DW to prepare 0.5% for records).

Just one note of caution, this general purpose cleaner has no additives to protect hands. So if you use without gloves (nitrile) it will clean your hands and excess exposure will strip all oils leaving yours very clean & very dry.

Neil

 

[Stacore]

Great Neil! Then we have a source of Liquinox in EU - the Merck company and their distributors (in Poland it is Alchem, they also have Tergitol S7).

I'm a bit confused with the dilution of the Liquinox: here you mention 0.5% while in the book 1%. I'd rather use more aggressive then less for the pre-clean as I do it fast and 1-step:

1 rotation to distribute the cleaner + 1 rotation rubbing energetically with a brush + 1 rotation in the opposite direction rubbing + change direction again: 1 rotation in the initial direction, the brush pressed against the vinyl (a 'finish') + 1 rotation vacuum.

Takes about 1min per side so the cleaner does not have much time to work.

 

[tima]

1 rotation to distribute the cleaner + 1 rotation rubbing energetically with a brush + 1 rotation in the opposite direction rubbing + change direction again: 1 rotation in the initial direction, the brush pressed against the vinyl (a 'finish') + 1 rotation vacuum.

Just don't use the same brush as for scrubbing your deck.

Neil/Jarek - what is the efficacy of letting Liquinox/Alconox simply sit on the record with only light brushing to keep it distributed.

 

[Stacore]

Hey Tim, no worries I have a small collection of brushes now

From my experience some time ago - just letting the cleaner soak was not enough, at lest given the vacuum of Okki Nokki. I remember making tests and adding scrubbing after the soak phase removed more of the noises.

BTW did a quick test listening of my double US procedure - very good results! Thank you so much guys for pushing the art!

 

[Neil.Antin]

Great Neil! Then we have a source of Liquinox in EU - the Merck company and their distributors (in Poland it is Alchem, they also have Tergitol S7).

I'm a bit confused with the dilution of the Liquinox: here you mention 0.5% while in the book 1%. I'd rather use more aggressive then less for the pre-clean as I do it fast and 1-step:

1 rotation to distribute the cleaner + 1 rotation rubbing energetically with a brush + 1 rotation in the opposite direction rubbing + change direction again: 1 rotation in the initial direction, the brush pressed against the vinyl (a 'finish') + 1 rotation vacuum.

Takes about 1min per side so the cleaner does not have much time to work.

Jarek:

Per the book,

"XIII.1 A key difference between the manual cleaning procedure of CHAPTER V. MANUAL CLEANING PROCESS: and vacuum-RCM, is the difference in cleaner concentration/ volume and rinse water volume that can be used. The manual clean procedure of CHAPTER V. MANUAL CLEANING PROCESS: has almost no limits. Any excess cleaner just drips off into a sink and there is a near infinite source of tap-water for initial rinsing. In comparison, vacuum-RCM have inherent design limits to the amount of cleaning agent and rinse water that can be applied otherwise the unit can be flooded and damaged. Additionally, because of limits with the amount of rinse water that can be applied, lower cleaner concentrations are preferred to control foam and get better rinse efficiency."

"XIII.4.a Pre-clean exceptionally dirty records with Alconox™ Liquinox™ at 0.5% (5 mL/L) - vacuum but do not fully dry. Depending on the record condition, two pre-clean steps may be required. Although the Alconox™ Liquinox™ will foam, most of the foam is collected in the brush as noted Figure 15.".

Liquinox at 0.5% is what you want to use with vac-RCM.

Neil

PS/Good info on source of Liquinox in EU.

 

[Neil.Antin]

Just don't use the same brush as for scrubbing your deck.

Neil/Jarek - what is the efficacy of letting Liquinox/Alconox simply sit on the record with only light brushing to keep it distributed.

Tim,

The efficacy with just a light brushing will be moderate. Its not really a soak-cleaner like an enzyme. The more aggressive the brushing - just short back-&-forth strokes - the more foam produced - see Figure 15; and per the information note on the next page - "The foam that is developed by the cleaning process is beneficial. It helps to lift debris and soil from the record groove. The Nylon brush adsorbing the foam assists with lifting the debris and soil from the record minimizing the risk of grinding debris and particles into record."

Neil

 

[Stacore]

Thanks Neil! But in our specific 3-setp process, after the RCM pre-clean the records go to the main US wash (2.5% + 0.02% S7) and then to the rinse US. I guess the vacuum RCM rinsing limitations you are mentioning do not really apply and 1% Liquinox may be used?

Cheers,

 

[Neil.Antin]

Thanks Neil! But in our specific 3-setp process, after the RCM pre-clean the records go to the main US wash (2.5% + 0.02% S7) and then to the rinse US. I guess the vacuum RCM rinsing limitations you are mentioning do not really apply and 1% Liquinox may be used?

Cheers,

Jarek;

I have given you my best recommendation based on the science; 0.5% diluted is (correction) 2,500 ppm active (Liquinox is 50% concentrated); and 0.25% active will still get you at least 2X CMC, so you have full detergency. However, if you are convinced that 1% is the way to go; try it. If you are not 99.99% effective in rinsing it, carry-over will become very obvious very quickly because Liquinox will increase TDS (from the anionic surfactant) and it produces a lot of foam. Once your UT baths start to foam excessively - layer of bubbles/foam across the entire surface - you want to change out the bath because you cannot filter it out easily.

And as I wrote in the book - noting that the pre-cleaner from the OEM below was less concentrated than the Liquinox (which is 50% concentrated):
"XII.7.1 During the implementation of MIL-STD-1330D, a manufacturer was experiencing frequent failure of the final clean step. Final cleaning was with a clear, alkaline, non-foaming solution filtered to 0.5 micron (absolute) that as part of cleanliness verification a sample was taken and checked for foam. If the final cleaner foamed, it indicated that the rinse step after pre-cleaning was not successful, and pre-cleaner was being carried over to the final clean step – contaminating the final cleaner. The final clean step was intended to only remove very fine particulate and thin non-foaming mineral-based films. The pre-clean step was using a commercial cleaning agent diluted per the vendor application notes to 10% (10:1) followed by a Purified-water ultrasonic rinse. To pass through the final clean step without it foaming, the pre-cleaner dilution had to be changed to 2% (50:1)."

Also, please note that the dried residue from Liqinox is essentially a water soluble grease; its a combination of the waxy flakes that are the anionic surfactants and the oil-like nonionic surfactants. You do not want this to dry on the record in any quantity. If I was going to use Liquinox/vac-RCM, I would at least add a vac-RCM rinse with Tergitol at 0.025-0.05% (with its low surface tension and nonionic surfactant) to help rinse any Liquinox residue and then a DW rinse/vac-RCM.

Good Luck,
Neil

 

[tima]

Thank you so much guys for pushing the art!

And, thank you Jarek for your participation and good questions. Isn't it top excellent here to have Neil's participation!

 

[Stacore]

Also, please note that the dried residue from Liqinox is essentially a water soluble grease; its a combination of the waxy flakes that are the anionic surfactants and the oil-like nonionic surfactants. You do not want this to dry on the record in any quantity. If I was going to use Liquinox/vac-RCM, I would at least add a vac-RCM rinse with Tergitol at 0.025-0.05% (with its low surface tension and nonionic surfactant) to help rinse any Liquinox residue and then a DW rinse/vac-RCM.

Got it Neil, thank you for your patience! I had problems with leftover of Ilford solution ('plastiky' sound of vinyls) and had to re-clean several dozens of records. Never again! I start with 0.25% and don't go past 0.5% Liquinox and observe carefully what happens. I should get the bottle mid Oct.

 

[Neil.Antin]

Isn't it top excellent here to have Neil's participation!

Tim,

Thank-you for the acknowledgment. However, your feedback and those of others is a very important part of this exploration, this journey. Speaking of which, any feedback from going to higher power, pulse? and higher temp (40C) during the 80kHz cleaning phase?

Neil

 

[Neil.Antin]

Jarek;

I have given you my best recommendation based on the science; 0.5% diluted is 25,000 ppm active (Liquinox is 50% concentrated); and 0.25% active will still get you at least 2X CMC, so you have full detergency.

Correction - 0.5% Liquinox = 2,500 ppm. Original post #435 above corrected.
Too much math (LOL)

 

[dminches]

Tim,

Thank-you for the acknowledgment. However, your feedback and those of others is a very important part of this exploration, this journey. Speaking of which, any feedback from going to higher power, pulse? and higher temp (40C) during the 80kHz cleaning phase?

Neil

I had started down that road by going to 100% at 80 kHz with the Koolance radiator in place but after the first cleaning my ultrasonic tank stopped working so it is now being repaired. I should have it back this week and will report back.