tima's DIY RCM

[Neil.Antin]

Neil, I just take machines from Audiorevita, not their liquids. I use 2.5% IPA + 0.02% Tergitol S7

Jarek,

My comment was not directed to what you are doing which was addressed in this post https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/timas-diy-rcm.26013/post-743754, but only as a reference point for Audiorevita indicating they were getting faster cleaning with their sweep function.

Otherwise, are you monitoring the IPA concentration or refreshing it? It will evaporate with water but it will evaporate faster from the water.

Take care,
Neil

 

[Stacore]

Jarek,

My comment was not directed to what you are doing which was addressed in this post https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/timas-diy-rcm.26013/post-743754, but only as a reference point for Audiorevita indicating they were getting faster cleaning with their sweep function.

Otherwise, are you monitoring the IPA concentration or refreshing it? It will evaporate with water but it will evaporate faster from the water.

Take care,
Neil

Got it Neil!

I'm not monitoring the IPA level. When I top up the cleaner (about 300ml at a time), I add a mix of DIW and 3% IPA. I could get a simple alcohol meter (one used for beer brewing) but it is supposed to monitor ethanol so not sure if it will work with IPA?

 

[tima]

But you never know, so it may be worth while trying the Automatic Frequency Change Mode for the 1st UT cycle in-place of continuous 37-kHz:

1. 1st cycle - Automatic Frequency Change Mode at 70-80% power. Time the cycle so that the record receives an equal amount of exposure - keep it simple by using an equal number of revolutions. So, at 0.6 rpm = 1-revolution every 1.67 min; 3 revolutions = 5 min.

2. 2nd cycle - 80 kHz at 100% power + pulse. At 0.6 rpm use as above 5 min for 3-revolutions.

Interesting - thank you, Neil. I've been using 10 minute cycles, one at each frequency. If I understand correctly, this reduces the 37kHz cycle time by half and increases the 80kHz cycle time by 5 minutes, though at a lower power.

im, how does one turn on this feature? It is mentioned in the manual but I couldn't find the instructions. Do you press and hold the frequency button?

Yes, hold the frequency button for > 2 seconds. An asterisk appears before the frequency value. To turn it off, press the frequency button.

 

[Neil.Antin]

Interesting - thank you, Neil. I've been using 10 minute cycles, one at each frequency. If I understand correctly, this reduces the 37kHz cycle time by half and increases the 80kHz cycle time by 5 minutes, though at a lower power.

Tim:

For what I recommended, this is what would be accumulated after 10-min (6 revolutions) total cleaning time:

Cycle 1 - Automatic Frequency Change Mode at 70-80% power
1. 37 kHz for 2.5 min
2. 80 kHz for 2.5 min

Cycle 2 - 100% Power + Pulse
1. 80-kHz for 5 min

What you are trying to achieve is the best 'recipe' for cleaning a record of initial general cleanliness. And, the Elmasonic is unique in the opportunities it provides.

For a dirty record you could add (for want of a better term) a Pre-Cycle of 5-min (3 full revolutions) 37 kHz @75% Power. Filter the tank for 5 min (this will achieve ~90% filtered) then proceed to Cycle 1.

Anticipating the question, should you filter the tank between Cycle 1 and Cycle 2 - maybe. If after Cycle 1 the tank bath is not clear - then yes. But you should not need more than about 3-4.5 min. For your tank (12-L) and pump (5 lpm) here are the times vs % filtered:

1.5 min = 50%
3.0 min = 75%
4.5 min = 87.5%
5 min = 90%
6 min = 93.75%
7.5 min = 96.88%
9 min = 98.44%
10.5 min = 99.22%
12 min = 99.6%
Note: For recirculation it never reaches 100%, but after 12 min its close enough.

Good Luck,
Neil

 

[dminches]

Tim:

For what I recommended, this is what would be accumulated after 10-min (6 revolutions) total cleaning time:

Cycle 1 - Automatic Frequency Change Mode at 70-80% power
1. 37 kHz for 2.5 min
2. 80 kHz for 2.5 min

Cycle 2 - 100% Power + Pulse
1. 80-kHz for 5 min

What you are trying to achieve is the best 'recipe' for cleaning a record of initial general cleanliness. And, the Elmasonic is unique in the opportunities it provides.

For a dirty record you could add (for want of a better term) a Pre-Cycle of 5-min (3 full revolutions) 37 kHz @75% Power. Filter the tank for 5 min (this will achieve ~90% filtered) then proceed to Cycle 1.

Anticipating the question, should you filter the tank between Cycle 1 and Cycle 2 - maybe. If after Cycle 1 the tank bath is not clear - then yes. But you should not need more than about 3-4.5 min. For your tank (12-L) and pump (5 lpm) here are the times vs % filtered:

1.5 min = 50%
3.0 min = 75%
4.5 min = 87.5%
5 min = 90%
6 min = 93.75%
7.5 min = 96.88%
9 min = 98.44%
10.5 min = 99.22%
12 min = 99.6%
Note: For recirculation it never reaches 100%, but after 12 min its close enough.

Good Luck,
Neil

Neil, do your comments infer that we shouldn't be running the pump/filter during actual cleaning, ie. when the tank ultrasonics are active?

 

[Neil.Antin]

Neil, do your comments infer that we shouldn't be running the pump/filter during actual cleaning, ie. when the tank ultrasonics are active?

David,

1. From the book XIV.2.b, A flow rate equal to 50% of the tank volume is acceptable, but any greater and the cavitation intensity can decrease quickly. From XIV.5.3, I show that record rotation causes flow and I combine the flow rate from records rotating and any pump flow into an equation XIV.5.3.c. So, for your 12L cleaning tank, and if the pump is operating (5 lpm), these are the # of records and rpm that combined with the pump will keep the total flow rate = 50% of the tank volume/min.

2-records = 0.6 rpm (this is spinner speed of the Kuzma unit).
3-records = 0.4 rpm (if you operate at 100% power; you would probably be OK with 3-records at 0.6 rpm)
4-records = 0.3 rpm (this speed and anything lower is not really practical)

2. So, if you are cleaning 6-records at a time, as book says, filter between cycles (i.e. batches). For rinsing which is not as critical and using the the Little Giant pump which a bit less flow @~4 lpm flow, running the pump while rinsing 6 records is OK; but use 100% power.

3. A few caveats: The lower UT frequencies such as 37 & 40 kHz are most impacted by flow rate >50% of tank volume/min; while the higher UT frequencies such as 120 kHz not impacted much at all. The 80 kHz will fall some place in-between.

Hope this answers your question.
Neil

 

[dminches]

David,

1. From the book XIV.2.b, A flow rate equal to 50% of the tank volume is acceptable, but any greater and the cavitation intensity can decrease quickly. From XIV.5.3, I show that record rotation causes flow and I combine the flow rate from records rotating and any pump flow into an equation XIV.5.3.c. So, for your 12L cleaning tank, and if the pump is operating (5 lpm), these are the # of records and rpm that combined with the pump will keep the total flow rate = 50% of the tank volume/min.

2-records = 0.6 rpm (this is spinner speed of the Kuzma unit).
3-records = 0.4 rpm (if you operate at 100% power; you would probably be OK with 3-records at 0.6 rpm)
4-records = 0.3 rpm (this speed and anything lower is not really practical)

2. So, if you are cleaning 6-records at a time, as book says, filter between cycles (i.e. batches). For rinsing which is not as critical and using the the Little Giant pump which a bit less flow @~4 lpm flow, running the pump while rinsing 6 records is OK; but use 100% power.

3. A few caveats: The lower UT frequencies such as 37 & 40 kHz are most impacted by flow rate >50% of tank volume/min; while the higher UT frequencies such as 120 kHz not impacted much at all. The 80 kHz will fall some place in-between.

Hope this answers your question.
Neil

It does. It sounds like I should not filter during cleaning since I clean 4-5 records at a time.

 

[Stacore]

Neil, I'm sorry if I'm repeating sth that has been answered - how to measure IPA level? Would normal (wine/beer) glass alcoholmeters work? Or a refractometer? Thank you

 

[Neil.Antin]

Neil, I'm sorry if I'm repeating sth that has been answered - how to measure IPA level? Would normal (wine/beer) glass alcoholmeters work? Or a refractometer? Thank you

Jarek,

To measure IPA concentration you would use a hydrometer specifically calibrated for IPA such as VWR® Isopropyl Alcohol Hydrometers, Traceable to NIST | VWR. Is it worth it - in my opinion no. The benefit of 2.5% IPA is marginal - the Tergitol is doing the real work. And, if you have not been monitoring and only adding for water evaporated its likely that the in-tank concentration is <1%. However, being completely honest, I will recommend it at 2.5% only because some people are convinced that you cannot clean a record without it.

Take Care,
Neil

 

[rDin]

However, being completely honest, I will recommend it at 2.5% only because some people are convinced that you cannot clean a record without it.

And you are not convinced?

 

[tima]

Tim:

For what I recommended, this is what would be accumulated after 10-min (6 revolutions) total cleaning time:

Cycle 1 - Automatic Frequency Change Mode at 70-80% power
1. 37 kHz for 2.5 min
2. 80 kHz for 2.5 min

Cycle 2 - 100% Power + Pulse
1. 80-kHz for 5 min

What you are trying to achieve is the best 'recipe' for cleaning a record of initial general cleanliness. And, the Elmasonic is unique in the opportunities it provides.

For a dirty record you could add (for want of a better term) a Pre-Cycle of 5-min (3 full revolutions) 37 kHz @75% Power. Filter the tank for 5 min (this will achieve ~90% filtered) then proceed to Cycle 1.

Anticipating the question, should you filter the tank between Cycle 1 and Cycle 2 - maybe. If after Cycle 1 the tank bath is not clear - then yes. But you should not need more than about 3-4.5 min. For your tank (12-L) and pump (5 lpm) here are the times vs % filtered:

1.5 min = 50%
3.0 min = 75%
4.5 min = 87.5%
5 min = 90%
6 min = 93.75%
7.5 min = 96.88%
9 min = 98.44%
10.5 min = 99.22%
12 min = 99.6%
Note: For recirculation it never reaches 100%, but after 12 min its close enough.

Good Luck,
Neil

David,

1. From the book XIV.2.b, A flow rate equal to 50% of the tank volume is acceptable, but any greater and the cavitation intensity can decrease quickly. From XIV.5.3, I show that record rotation causes flow and I combine the flow rate from records rotating and any pump flow into an equation XIV.5.3.c. So, for your 12L cleaning tank, and if the pump is operating (5 lpm), these are the # of records and rpm that combined with the pump will keep the total flow rate = 50% of the tank volume/min.

2-records = 0.6 rpm (this is spinner speed of the Kuzma unit).
3-records = 0.4 rpm (if you operate at 100% power; you would probably be OK with 3-records at 0.6 rpm)
4-records = 0.3 rpm (this speed and anything lower is not really practical)

2. So, if you are cleaning 6-records at a time, as book says, filter between cycles (i.e. batches). For rinsing which is not as critical and using the the Little Giant pump which a bit less flow @~4 lpm flow, running the pump while rinsing 6 records is OK; but use 100% power.

3. A few caveats: The lower UT frequencies such as 37 & 40 kHz are most impacted by flow rate >50% of tank volume/min; while the higher UT frequencies such as 120 kHz not impacted much at all. The 80 kHz will fall some place in-between.

Hope this answers your question.
Neil

It does. It sounds like I should not filter during cleaning since I clean 4-5 records at a time.

I assumed Neil knew we are filtering throughout the entire cleaning cycle. This is an interesting and somewhat esoteric discussion with new interesting implications. Its focus seems to be on ultrasonic cleaning effectiveness/efficiency and the consequences of flow rate at a given frequency.

Neil writes: "The lower UT frequencies such as 37 & 40 kHz are most impacted by flow rate >50% of tank volume/min; while the higher UT frequencies such as 120 kHz not impacted much at all. The 80 kHz will fall some place in-between."

My question is can we assess what the flow rate impact is? If 120kHz is 0 impact what percentage of effectiveness is ... lost? ... at lower frequencies? And can that loss be compensated for by increasing amount of time under rotation? Or am I making this too complicated?

My thought goes to cleanliness. I want the tank solution at its cleanest when I pull records from it for both wash and rinse. This suggests either a post-cycle-2 filtering or filtering during cleaning ... or?

According to the Kuzma RD manual: "The records rotate with 0.4-0.6 rpm ( less then one revolution per minute)." It shows pictures with 10+ records on a spindle. I speculate that rpm may be a function of spindle load. I typical have 4-5 records on a spindle. And it may be impacted by the particular motor used to rotate the spindle. I should time the rotation.

The RD motor is a high torque 12V motor that we run at 9V (per Kuzma). I believe they may run at lower voltages (3,5,6) but I do not know the effect. I suppose the point is there may be some flexibility. I am not certain but I think the motor is model nbr: WGM370123100-2484K.

 

[Stacore]

Jarek,

To measure IPA concentration you would use a hydrometer specifically calibrated for IPA such as VWR® Isopropyl Alcohol Hydrometers, Traceable to NIST | VWR. Is it worth it - in my opinion no. The benefit of 2.5% IPA is marginal - the Tergitol is doing the real work. And, if you have not been monitoring and only adding for water evaporated its likely that the in-tank concentration is <1%. However, being completely honest, I will recommend it at 2.5% only because some people are convinced that you cannot clean a record without it.

Take Care,
Neil

Got it Neil, thank you! I top up with 3% IPA not just pure DIW so there is some IPA in the cleaner (I can smell it
BTW when is the time to change the 0.2um filter? It is getting more and more dirty

 

[Neil.Antin]

And you are not convinced?

As I wrote in post #415:

"Also, and I am repeating myself, but where the book says that isopropyl (and ethanol) forms an azeotrope with water is only true for >50% concentration. At less, the alcohol will separately evaporate from the water, so with a large open heated UT tank, the alcohol concentration will be decreasing (over some time) unless you are monitoring with an ethanol (or isopropyl) hydrometer and adjusting. Because of this detail of water/alcohol, I am no longer recommending alcohol for UT tanks that are being operated to extend bath life unless: ...if you are going to use IPA, you should monitor the IPA concentration and supplement to keep the concentration...."

If you are not periodically (daily in use) monitoring the IPA concentration - any benefit of the IPA is quickly lost. Also, the odor threshold for IPA ranges from 40 ppm to 200 ppm; and the concentration in the vapor will be much higher than in the liquid. So ability to smell the IPA means very little.

 

[Neil.Antin]

Got it Neil, thank you! I top up with 3% IPA not just pure DIW so there is some IPA in the cleaner (I can smell it
BTW when is the time to change the 0.2um filter? It is getting more and more dirty

Jarek,

The odor threshold for IPA ranges from 40 ppm to 200 ppm; and the concentration in the vapor will be much higher than in the liquid. So ability to smell the IPA does not mean there is any appreciable concentration in the liquid.

The filter should be good for about 3-bar pressure. As the filter fouls the pump pressure will increase automatically and flow will drop a little, but pump power draw will increase and the motor will heat up accordingly. The pump will shut-off at about 3-bar pressure but at that point the flow will be very low and the motor housing should be very hot i.e. >60C. When running what is the motor housing temp - is it warm or hot? You should probably change out the filter when the motor housing is running hot at ~50C. Otherwise, installing a pressure gauge at the filter inlet is the ideal solution.

Neil

 

[Neil.Antin]

My question is can we assess what the flow rate impact is? If 120kHz is 0 impact what percentage of effectiveness is ... lost? ... at lower frequencies? And can that loss be compensated for by increasing amount of time under rotation? Or am I making this too complicated?

If you are cleaning 5 records @ 0.6 rpm and filtering 5 lpm, the %volume of the tank being agitated is essentially 100%. At 100% agitation, the cavitation energy at 37-kHz can be reduced by as much as 75%. You cannot over-come this with more power or more time.

My thought goes to cleanliness. I want the tank solution at its cleanest when I pull records from it for both wash and rinse. This suggests either a post-cycle-2 filtering or filtering during cleaning ... or?

You have a large bath of 12L, and the soil/particulate being removed becomes mostly homogenous in the bath. Provided you filter between wash cycles, carry over from the final (last) wash cycle to the rinse cycle is minimal and should be of no consequence.

The RD motor is a high torque 12V motor that we run at 9V (per Kuzma). I believe they may run at lower voltages (3,5,6) but I do not know the effect. I suppose the point is there may be some flexibility. I

You can buy a variable 12V power supply such as Amazon.com: JOVNO Universal Power Supply 3V-12V 5A 60W Adjustable AC/DC Adapter 100~240V AC to DC 3V 5V 6V 8V 9V 12V with LED Display and 14 Plugs 1 Reverse Polarity Converter Cable for LED Strips Motors Speaks : Everything Else or a 120W version Amazon.com: SHNITPWR 4V - 12V Power Supply 10A 120W AC to DC Adapter DC 4V 4.5V 5V 6V 7V 8V 9V 10V 11V 12V Voltage Adjustable Universal Power Converter Transformer 100-240V AC In with 14 Tips & Polarity Converter : Electronics and setting it a lower voltage will reduce the spinner speed. BUT, as I wrote XIV.5 Record rotation speed you can spin too slow because of chemistry drying on the record and for the high power of the Elmasonic - you may overheat the record .

If you want to filter while cleaning, you can buy the SHURflo™ Model SLV10-AA48 (12 VDC) and wire to the 120W variable power supply noted above (with this type of adapter - Amazon.com: SAE Connectors - iGreely SAE Plug to DC 5.5mm x 2.1mm Male 14AWG 2ft/60cm Adapters Cables with Sae Polarity Reverse Adapter for Automotive RV Solar Panel : Automotive) and dial down the voltage to about 6-9V. This will reduce the speed of the pump that will reduce the flow rate, but it does not change how much pressure it can develop because it does not limit current. This will drop the pump flow to about 2 lpm and you can clean up to 6 record @0.6 rpm.

BUT, BUT, BUT. A pump of only 2 lpm will only filter 50% of your tank in 4.2-min. To have some effectiveness you need to operate the pump for at least 8.4 min to filter 75% of the tank. So, to achieve a clean bath at the end of a cycle means extending the cycle time with no guaranties since the soil is being released from the surface over time.

EDIT: The addition of cooling can drive the pump selection. If the pump/cooler cannot decrease the tank temp enough in-between cycles (which favors a higher flow rate pump), then you need to go to the lower flow pump to allow continuous cooling/filtration.

Its all a delicate, intricate and inter-related balance.

Neil

 

[dminches]

Neil, is there any downside to running a 10 minute (as opposed to 5 minute) cycle at 37 kHz as well as a 10 minute (as opposed to 5) cycle at 80 kHz? That is, can the extra time be harmful?

 

[Neil.Antin]

Neil, is there any downside to running a 10 minute (as opposed to 5 minute) cycle at 37 kHz as well as a 10 minute (as opposed to 5) cycle at 80 kHz? That is, can the extra time be harmful?

David,

No, but it heats the water. Try this process:

1. 37-kHz 10 min w/o pump. The 37-kHz is the pre-clean step. If this step is not as effective as possible, the follow-on higher frequency @ 80-kHz is compromised.

2. 80-kHz 10 min & 100% power w/pump.

Good Luck,
Neil

 

[rDin]

As I wrote in post #415:

"Also, and I am repeating myself, but where the book says that isopropyl (and ethanol) forms an azeotrope with water is only true for >50% concentration. At less, the alcohol will separately evaporate from the water, so with a large open heated UT tank, the alcohol concentration will be decreasing (over some time) unless you are monitoring with an ethanol (or isopropyl) hydrometer and adjusting. Because of this detail of water/alcohol, I am no longer recommending alcohol for UT tanks that are being operated to extend bath life unless: ...if you are going to use IPA, you should monitor the IPA concentration and supplement to keep the concentration...."

If you are not periodically (daily in use) monitoring the IPA concentration - any benefit of the IPA is quickly lost. Also, the odor threshold for IPA ranges from 40 ppm to 200 ppm; and the concentration in the vapor will be much higher than in the liquid. So ability to smell the IPA means very little.

Thanks. I drain and store between sessions (40 min session max) and completely refresh the water/IPA mix every 20 records (4 sessions), so I’ll assume, unless corrected, that the concentration remains high enough to have some positive effect…

 

[dminches]

David,

No, but it heats the water. Try this process:

1. 37-kHz 10 min w/o pump. The 37-kHz is the pre-clean step. If this step is not as effective as possible, the follow-on higher frequency @ 80-kHz is compromised.

2. 80-kHz 10 min & 100% power w/pump.

Good Luck,
Neil

I will try that. Now that I have the radiator I can keep the temps lower if the pump is running.

 

[Stacore]

Jarek,

The odor threshold for IPA ranges from 40 ppm to 200 ppm; and the concentration in the vapor will be much higher than in the liquid. So ability to smell the IPA does not mean there is any appreciable concentration in the liquid.

Got it! But since Tergitol is doing most/all of the job I would not loose my sleep about the IPA level. I also think that the vacuum pre-clean although makes the process longer and more elaborate, it nicely spreads the cleaning job over two processes, making the requirements each of them has to satisfy less stringent. Thus even if the US cleaner is not perfect, some of the job has been already done by the vacuum. BTW, the Liquinox for bthe vacuum pre-clean will be delivered only Jan next year (manufacturer's problems) so I continue with my existing mix (5%IPA + 0.05% S7).

The filter should be good for about 3-bar pressure. As the filter fouls the pump pressure will increase automatically and flow will drop a little, but pump power draw will increase and the motor will heat up accordingly. The pump will shut-off at about 3-bar pressure but at that point the flow will be very low and the motor housing should be very hot i.e. >60C. When running what is the motor housing temp - is it warm or hot? You should probably change out the filter when the motor housing is running hot at ~50C. Otherwise, installing a pressure gauge at the filter inlet is the ideal solution.

The pump keeps working normal warm. I will monitor its temperature. The filter does a great job - at 130 LP's the cleaner still transparent and TDS around 3ppm.

BIG THANK YOU Neil!