tima's DIY RCM

[Stacore]

Finished recently cleaning all of my vinyls! Fantastic, liberating feeling Had no idea that would be doable in any sort of a reasonable time. A BIG BIG THANK YOU Neil, Tima, and the rest of the enthusiasts here for paving the road.

 

[tima]

Finished recently cleaning all of my vinyls! Fantastic, liberating feeling Had no idea that would be doable in any sort of a reasonable time. A BIG BIG THANK YOU Neil, Tima, and the rest of the enthusiasts here for paving the road.

That's great Jarek, congrats. Probably took you less time and you had more fun than using a single-slot desktop RCM.

 

[Stacore]

That's great Jarek, congrats. Probably took you less time and you had more fun than using a single-slot desktop RCM.

Absolutely! Plus vacuum will not clean as US cleans, let alone 2x US with different solutions. Adding the 2nd rinse UST was crucial for the speedup, thanks again guys!

 

[Neil.Antin]

Absolutely! Plus vacuum will not clean as US cleans, let alone 2x US with different solutions. Adding the 2nd rinse UST was crucial for the speedup, thanks again guys!

Jarek,

Congrats, and just for the record (), how many records did you clean?

Best Regards,
Neil

 

[Stacore]

Jarek,

Congrats, and just for the record (), how many records did you clean?

Best Regards,
Neil

Neil thanks! Your methods worked wonders. Honestly I've lost the count but surprisingly less than I thought. Some 400+ perhaps

 

[Stacore]

PS Now I think I need a disc flattener to complete the LP restoration. Some LP's wave like Baltic sea at a stromy day

 

[rDin]

PS Now I think I need a disc flattener

Mine is invaluable (ORB), particularly for Amazon purchases which always seem to arrived dished. I always do a quick clean on the vacuum RCM before flattening to remove detritus as I don't want anything "baking" on to the record during flattening. No evidence that that happens, but easy to do a quick clean.

 

[tima]

Mine is invaluable (ORB), particularly for Amazon purchases which always seem to arrived dished.

Won't they take those back at their expense? I won't accept a warped new record.

 

[dminches]

Won't they take those back at their expense? I won't accept a warped new record.

Amazon is the best place to buy records since they are the easiest to return. I don’t buy all my records there but any issues are easily resolvable.

 

[Neil.Antin]

@dminches,

David,

Did the aluminum radiator fix the TDS problem?

Neil

 

[dminches]

@dminches,

David,

Did the aluminum radiator fix the TDS problem?

Neil

Neil, I think so. I am not ready to say “yes” because I have been having issues with my washing tank. It was out for repair for almost a month and then failed again 2 days after I got it back. Fortunately, Tovatech shipped me a new unit which I got 3 days ago. I am back up and running and should have more to report next week after I run a bunch of cleaning sessions.

 

[rDin]

Won't they take those back at their expense? I won't accept a warped new record.

They will, but pretty much every record I get from them is dished so I prefer the path of least resistance with the flattener. I only buy from Amazon when I can't find the album from my friendly independent stores.

And the flattener proves useful in the 2nd hand market where you cannot be sure of what you are getting. Sometimes albums arrive lightly warped or dished, which isn't necessarily a bad thing as it means it's likely unplayed for the same reason and sold on cheaply. After flattening you can get a mint copy of a desired pressing

In an ideal world they wouldn't be needed, but they are a very useful tool to have.

 

[tima]

They will, but pretty much every record I get from them is dished so I prefer the path of least resistance with the flattener. I only buy from Amazon when I can't find the album from my friendly independent stores.

And the flattener proves useful in the 2nd hand market where you cannot be sure of what you are getting. Sometimes albums arrive lightly warped or dished, which isn't necessarily a bad thing as it means it's likely unplayed for the same reason and sold on cheaply. After flattening you can get a mint copy of a desired pressing

In an ideal world they wouldn't be needed, but they are a very useful tool to have.

Yes, I agree - though I don't have one. I'm not questioning the flattener, just thinking that ideally one should not have to accept new records that are warped. And yes the whole return process is a hassle.

 

[rDin]

I'm not questioning the flattener, just thinking that ideally one should not have to accept new records that are warped.

Absolutely. Sold goods, certainly under UK law, should be 'fit for purpose' and a warped record isn't fit for purpose and should be replaced by the seller without question.

 

[rDin]

Would be interested in thoughts: I have a non-forum friend who is claiming miracle results with "hot" fluids. He's using a mixture of water, a little IPA and a couple of drops of washing up liquid - heated to 80C which he is spraying onto the record and scrubbing in for 10 minutes, rinsing, and doing same again. He claims this is transforming previously uncleanable records (he uses ultrasonic) into silent records.

It seems intuitive that heat would assist cleaning, but I'm wondering if there is an optimal heat for our application? Personally, *I'm* concerned about spot melting at 80C, but he seems convinced it's safe. Would be interested in thoughts on this.

Finally, in terms of a detergent effect, would heated Liquinox be better than room temp? Or would something more acidic like distilled white vinegar or the other Alconix cleaner Neil has mentioned be more appropriate for the "hot wash" treatment?

 

[Neil.Antin]

Would be interested in thoughts: I have a non-forum friend who is claiming miracle results with "hot" fluids. He's using a mixture of water, a little IPA and a couple of drops of washing up liquid - heated to 80C which he is spraying onto the record and scrubbing in for 10 minutes, rinsing, and doing same again. He claims this is transforming previously uncleanable records (he uses ultrasonic) into silent records.

It seems intuitive that heat would assist cleaning, but I'm wondering if there is an optimal heat for our application? Personally, *I'm* concerned about spot melting at 80C, but he seems convinced it's safe. Would be interested in thoughts on this.

Finally, in terms of a detergent effect, would heated Liquinox be better than room temp? Or would something more acidic like distilled white vinegar or the other Alconix cleaner Neil has mentioned be more appropriate for the "hot wash" treatment?

First, for UT tank application as I wrote in the book - "XIV.2.a Temperature: For water, beyond about 40°C/104°F, the cavitation intensity can decrease. But, for lower kHz (60-kHz) cleaning efficiency can increase by about 10% up to about 60°C/140°F. However, for higher frequency (132- kHz) units, cleaning efficiency peaks at 40°C/104°F and then decreases rapidly." However, you do not want to expose to record to a 'bath; at >40C because of record softening in contact with cavitation intensity - there will be risk of record damage.

A far as 80C (176F), 1st that is a burn hazard and 2nd even with only 2% IPA its flammable - that is just dangerous and is an accident waiting to happen. Also, at 80C/176F with IPA the risk of damaging the vinyl is very real; the damage will be by the vinyl absorbing the water/IPA and softening the side wall ridges enough that first play could trench the side wall grooves.

Otherwise, for metal cleaning - removing heavy oil/greases. machining residue, hot alkaline detergents at 60-70C in UT tanks is common. The UT frequency is generally 25-40 kHz. Hot fluids can cause the oil/grease to become viscous and easier to remove; and alkaline detergents are intended for hot use.

Spraying a heated fluid on the record may cause a rapid thermal expansion of the vinyl material (thermal shock) that may result in easier removal of soil and particulate and given the poor detergency of the water/IPA/few drops of detergent mix, it can use any help it can get. But, it cannot stay very warm otherwise after 10-min it would have already evaporated; unless he is periodically re-spraying. If the record heats up too much it softens and now is much easier to scratch. The class transition temperature for PVC is about 81C. Glass transition temperature is the temperature at which the polymer transits from a hard glassy state to a rubbery state upon the increasing of temperature. The record is not PVC its PVCa which is softer so its glass transition temperature should be less. If you do some research you will come across some people using (distilled/deionized) steam for record cleaning after 1st applying a cleaner - the steam probably acts as a rinse/drying aid.

The benefit of the pH neutral Alconox Liquinox, is its a wide range aggressive detergent. Yes, at some elevated temperature it can provide better detergency if you were trying to degrease a record that was coated in grease. Not sure of your use, but with the Liquinox I only scrub for about 90-sec/side. The use of a weak acid (after the Liquinox) is for one purpose - remove essentially embedded mineral/metal based particles that the Liquinox did not remove - the weak acid can dissolve them. I use the weak acid (Alconox Citranox) on all records (after cleaning 1st with Liquinox) but I scrub for only about 60-sec/side. If after about the 3rd play, the record is still noisy - then I will try a 15-mim/side acid soak. But for embedded particulate - this is the advantage of the higher kHz UT tanks such as the Elmasonic and the Degritter.

Neil

 

[rDin]

Thanks, Neil. I've passed on the warning about IPA at the temp he is using.

Myself, I do a 60sec scrub with liquinox, then let it soak for another 60secs before vacuuming it off - then it's on to the ultrasonics, but am wondering about experimenting with a Citranox (which I'd need to import)/White Vinegar step for those stubborn records that remain crackly to see if I can get any further improvement.

His success with "hot washing" had me wondering about efficacy and optimal application of such a method as well as the potential for damage. My thought was that I'd buy a baby bottle warmer for this use - I've seen one that can give constant heat from 37-60C and would seem ideal for holding a bottle of warmed spray to use during cleaning.

 

[tima]

Myself, I do a 60sec scrub with liquinox, then let it soak for another 60secs before vacuuming it off - then it's on to the ultrasonics, but am wondering about experimenting with a Citranox (which I'd need to import)/White Vinegar step for those stubborn records that remain crackly to see if I can get any further improvement.

A question I asked myself long ago when I first started cleaning records is: when do you stop?

If I just clean it one more time will I finally remove that noise on side B?

 

[rDin]

A question I asked myself long ago when I first started cleaning records is: when do you stop?

If I just clean it one more time will I finally remove that noise on side B?

Absolutely. I’m at the point where repeating a clean never improves the results, so there are no expectations of further improvements. Noisy records are written off as inherently noisy. However, a new process, in this case the “hot wash”, is at least worth investigating I feel. You never know…

 

[Neil.Antin]

Thanks, Neil. I've passed on the warning about IPA at the temp he is using.

Myself, I do a 60sec scrub with liquinox, then let it soak for another 60secs before vacuuming it off - then it's on to the ultrasonics, but am wondering about experimenting with a Citranox (which I'd need to import)/White Vinegar step for those stubborn records that remain crackly to see if I can get any further improvement.

His success with "hot washing" had me wondering about efficacy and optimal application of such a method as well as the potential for damage. My thought was that I'd buy a baby bottle warmer for this use - I've seen one that can give constant heat from 37-60C and would seem ideal for holding a bottle of warmed spray to use during cleaning.

First - do not use acid with your vacuum-RCM; they will corrode it. If you want to try an acid - it should to be done with a manual process. You do not need to import Citranox to determine if an acid may work for some records. Following what I wrote https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thre...-lps-2nd-edition.1064753/page-2#post-27517018 and https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thre...-lps-2nd-edition.1064753/page-2#post-27632025, you can try 5% DWV as follows:

1. Acid Wash: For records already cleaned - apply record label protector and pre-clean with Distilled White Vinegar (DWV) 5% acidity and add ~5 drops Dehypon LS54 to 1-pint (~500 ml) DWV so that the DWV wets the record. Spray-on and gently agitate with brush for 1-2 min/side and then rinse (with tap water) and continue to UT final clean. If the record after ~3 plays is still noisy, try an acid soak:

2. Acid Soak: Apply a label protector and just elevated the record (with label protector) on a plastic container. Put it in the sink, applied a liberal coating of the DWV/Dehypon LS54 to the record, adjust container to keep the record/acid solution level - and let sit for 15 min. Then rinse with tap water. Reapply DWV acid solution and then brush - this removes any swollen but not dissolved debris. Then rinse/brush away the acid with tap water. Then rinse away the tap-water with DIW spray. Then repeat the process for the other side. Yes - its a 30+-min process. Then finish with a final clean process.

3. Keep in mind some records are a bad pressing and the bad pressing can be the result of the stamper. If the stamper was contaminated with small particulate during plating - that will carryover to the stamper. Essentially, the record surface roughness is higher than normal - ergo the record is going to playback noisy. No amount of cleaning is going to fix this.

4. For the neutral pH Liquinox you can increase the concentration to 2% and you can try using warm. Its unlikely that this is going to remove what the acid is intended to remove. If there was dried paper on the record, heat will accelerate rehydrating the paper to get it to swell and get removed. But you can try. Also, some types of protein-based soils (i.e. human detritus) are better cleaned with room temperature cleaner.

5. Do not use heat with the acid DWV/Dehypon LS54. The cloud point (surfactant comes out of solution) of the Dehypon LS54 is not very high; also heating accelerates chemical reactions (~doubles for every 10C increase) and what was compatible at room temperature may now not be compatible with the record. Also, heat will make any odor objection of the DWV worse.

Acid soak and heated cleaners are really targeted at used records. I have used acid soak on used records with good results, for NOS records there has been some benefit, but for new records - acid wash is good, but acid soak has had very limited benefit.

Neil

PS/Has your friend tried Liquinox? Keep in mind that dish detergents are probably the worst possible cleaner to use for a record - they contain moisturizers that are added to protect your hands. Yes, Dawn is good for cleaning oil from water-fowl, its gentle enough and the moisturizers help to not harm the animal - but this is not what you need to clean a record. The better alterative for those dead-set on doing the DIY chemistry is to use a name-brand clear, fragrance-free liquid laundry detergent that has surfactants and enzymes and other additives to keep soil suspended and are relatively easy to rinse.