Visit to Goebel company

[Amir]

May I ask you two questions, Amir?
- What do you exactly mean with ‘modern sounding speaker’?
- Have you ever heard the Tidal LA speakers with top notch grounding (cables and grounding stations)? In my opinion only with top notch grounding one can fully comprehend the quality of the LA’s.

Modern sounding speakers:
We have some aspects like -dynamic -harmonic -image …
Modern sounding speakers trade off dynamics for better objective measurements. Most audiophiles prefer modern sounding speakers.

About comparing Tidal LA vs Gobel Majestic I think the best way is traveling to both Tidal and Gobel showrooms in Germany.
I am sure you will see Gobel Majestic is more dynamic more alive more natural than Tidal LA.

I think “dynamic” is the most important aspect of sound.

 

[LL21]

My friend watched all of John Hunter videos about subwoofer but I did not.
What I know is both speakers and subwoofers should be place in proper position and also the 6 subwoofer of Gobel have a major role in producing good sound.

I could believe that! Thanks.

 

[Audiocrack]

Modern sounding speakers:
We have some aspects like -dynamic -harmonic -image …
Modern sounding speakers trade off dynamics for better objective measurements. Most audiophiles prefer modern sounding speakers.

About comparing Tidal LA vs Gobel Majestic I think the best way is traveling to both Tidal and Gobel showrooms in Germany.
I am sure you will see Gobel Majestic is more dynamic more alive more natural than Tidal LA.

I think “dynamic” is the most important aspect of sound.

Respectfully disagree ad regards the comparison between the Tidal LA’s and the Goebel Majestics.

 

[Amir]

Respectfully disagree ad regards the comparison between the Tidal LA’s and the Goebel Majestics.

There are many audiophiles who agree you and there are some audiophiles who disagree you, for example some audiophiles do not like Tidal sound and some of them like Tidal speakers. What make sense is listen/expose to both speakers in their showrooms. If you visit both Gobel and Tidal and listen to complex/dynamic music then it will be very instructive.

Effortless dynamic vs compress dynamic:
When you expose to compress dynamic in long listenning sessions then you will feel tired and prefer to turn down the volume. When you listen to effortless dynamic sound you will have positive feeling in long listening sessions

 

[LL21]

There are many audiophiles who agree you and there are some audiophiles who disagree you, for example some audiophiles do not like Tidal sound and some of them like Tidal speakers. What make sense is listen/expose to both speakers in their showrooms. If you visit both Gobel and Tidal and listen to complex/dynamic music then it will be very instructive.

Effortless dynamic vs compress dynamic:
When you expose to compress dynamic in long listenning sessions then you will feel tired and prefer to turn down the volume. When you listen to effortless dynamic sound you will have positive feeling in long listening sessions

I am not going to get involved in a debate, but I AM going to ask a question about whether you find the 'freedom of dynamic expression' (a huge focus for David Wilson over his many years)...is comparable between the Majestic and the smaller Noblesse? I am not sure about now, but the original Wilson X1s had a freedom and absolute ease of dynamic expression the smaller Wilson speakers could not match.

The Majestic has 98db efficiency, scale and size of the speaker with loads of surface area which the Noblesse replicates in the uppers and mids perhaps but obviously not in the bass an overall scale capability. If you believe the Noblesse still does, that would be interesting because of course adding in your sub towers or something close to it...the Noblesse with those subs could be an awesome system without 'as much' of the gargantuan space-take and cost.

 

[Audiocrack]

There are many audiophiles who agree you and there are some audiophiles who disagree you, for example some audiophiles do not like Tidal sound and some of them like Tidal speakers. What make sense is listen/expose to both speakers in their showrooms. If you visit both Gobel and Tidal and listen to complex/dynamic music then it will be very instructive.

Effortless dynamic vs compress dynamic:
When you expose to compress dynamic in long listenning sessions then you will feel tired and prefer to turn down the volume. When you listen to effortless dynamic sound you will have positive feeling in long listening sessions

I have lived at home with my Tidal LA loudspeakers for many years now. Say 95% of my listening time involves classical music, including - of course - many large orchestral symphonies. With top notch amplifiers, power conditions and grounding the (quite efficient) LA’s sound very dynamic and not fatiguing at all. But I suppose tastes differ and everybody hears differently.

 

[Amir]

I am not going to get involved in a debate, but I AM going to ask a question about whether you find the 'freedom of dynamic expression' (a huge focus for David Wilson over his many years)...is comparable between the Majestic and the smaller Noblesse? I am not sure about now, but the original Wilson X1s had a freedom and absolute ease of dynamic expression the smaller Wilson speakers could not match.

The 98db efficiency, scale and size of the speaker with loads of surface area.

I am not speaker designer so I am not sure about how the size affects on dynamics but it seems the big dynamic driver speakers are more dynamic.
I agree you big wilsons are more dynamic than small wilsons. I did not listen to Wilson grand slam but I had Wilson Alexandria X2 in my home. I can say Gobel Majestic is very dynamic similar to my Wilson Alexandria X2 and I am sure Gobel Majestic is more dynamic than new wilsons like Wilson XVX.
I think Gobel Majestic is more dynamic than gobel Divin.

 

[Amir]

I have lived at home with my Tidal LA loudspeakers for many years now. Say 95% of my listening time involves classical music, including - of course - many large orchestral symphonies. With top notch amplifiers, power conditions and grounding the (quite efficient) LA’s sound very dynamic and not fatiguing at all. But I suppose tastes differ and everybody hears differently.

Did you listen to big horns like cessaro in your home?

 

[Oliver Göbel]

Fascinating. Thank you Amir. Very interesting to note. I also agree about Wilson plus subs and my next step is to look at Wilson crossover with an upgraded sub solution.

I also have liked what I have read and been told about Goebel by those whose ears I trust and can calibrate based on similar impressions and tastes.

I would say I am MOST intrigued by how emphatically positive you are on the Goebel sub towers! And for the already massive Majestic. I am not surprised but I still would love to hear them play to understand and experience the difference that it makes.

Did Goebel tell you about where the major part of the performance uplift comes from? Is it:

- the ability to have different location with separate subs
- is it the sheer size of air displacement they are producing?
- is it the vertical stacking (which REL surely promote strongly) where each level is calibrated slightly differently to create a different part of the overall effect?

Many thanks for this topic in this great forum.
I would like to quickly answer your questions and contribute to the discussion why subwoofers and especially multiple stacked subwoofers will have a fundamental positive effect on the overall music reproduction. Provided that they are perfectly positioned and adjusted. Also provided that you are using highest end subwoofers like our Divin Sovereign subwoofers.

1.) When using several stacked subwoofers you will activate the room modes much more equal. This will result in a much more linear frequency response, energy distribution and energy decay in the room. Which will lead to a much more realistic / less colored sound reproduction.

2.) The most optimal position for the main loudspeakers in the room is not always the best position for the infrasonic sub bass reproduction. By using subwoofers you are able to reach both and therefore are able to extend the frequency response down to the real subsonic areas.

3.) By using multiple subwoofers, you need less excursion to reproduce a certain sound pressure level. As the distortions are rising with membrane excursion (and that in addition not linear), it will result again in a more micro detailed sound reproduction.

Given the fact that you perfectly positioned and adjusted the subwoofers in the room and to the main loudspeakers, the sound quality advantages are not only restricted to the sub bass area. The perception is covering the complete frequency range from the deepest bass to the highest frequencies. Additionally the sound stage and 3 D sound experience will get much more detailed and natural.
And it is not a subtle difference!

 

[Elliot G.]

Many thanks for this topic in this great forum.
I would like to quickly answer your questions and contribute to the discussion why subwoofers and especially multiple stacked subwoofers will have a fundamental positive effect on the overall music reproduction. Provided that they are perfectly positioned and adjusted. Also provided that you are using highest end subwoofers like our Divin Sovereign subwoofers.

1.) When using several stacked subwoofers you will activate the room modes much more equal. This will result in a much more linear frequency response, energy distribution and energy decay in the room. Which will lead to a much more realistic / less colored sound reproduction.

2.) The most optimal position for the main loudspeakers in the room is not always the best position for the infrasonic sub bass reproduction. By using subwoofers you are able to reach both and therefore are able to extend the frequency response down to the real subsonic areas.

3.) By using multiple subwoofers, you need less excursion to reproduce a certain sound pressure level. As the distortions are rising with membrane excursion (and that in addition not linear), it will result again in a more micro detailed sound reproduction.

Given the fact that you perfectly positioned and adjusted the subwoofers in the room and to the main loudspeakers, the sound quality advantages are not only restricted to the sub bass area. The perception is covering the complete frequency range from the deepest bass to the highest frequencies. Additionally the sound stage and 3 D sound experience will get much more detailed and natural.
And it is not a subtle difference!

Thanks Oliver. I too have found that the proper use of a great sub, like yours, can greatly enhance the reality factor when listening. The you are there sensation and the 'feel' of the music is just palpable and so realistic. In your room with the over the top woofer 6 pack was nothing short of incredible. I expected no less from you LOL. Thanks for participating

 

[Amir]

Many thanks for this topic in this great forum.
I would like to quickly answer your questions and contribute to the discussion why subwoofers and especially multiple stacked subwoofers will have a fundamental positive effect on the overall music reproduction. Provided that they are perfectly positioned and adjusted. Also provided that you are using highest end subwoofers like our Divin Sovereign subwoofers.

1.) When using several stacked subwoofers you will activate the room modes much more equal. This will result in a much more linear frequency response, energy distribution and energy decay in the room. Which will lead to a much more realistic / less colored sound reproduction.

2.) The most optimal position for the main loudspeakers in the room is not always the best position for the infrasonic sub bass reproduction. By using subwoofers you are able to reach both and therefore are able to extend the frequency response down to the real subsonic areas.

3.) By using multiple subwoofers, you need less excursion to reproduce a certain sound pressure level. As the distortions are rising with membrane excursion (and that in addition not linear), it will result again in a more micro detailed sound reproduction.

Given the fact that you perfectly positioned and adjusted the subwoofers in the room and to the main loudspeakers, the sound quality advantages are not only restricted to the sub bass area. The perception is covering the complete frequency range from the deepest bass to the highest frequencies. Additionally the sound stage and 3 D sound experience will get much more detailed and natural.
And it is not a subtle difference!

Thank you very much for information

 

[mtemur]

You can never achieve a good result with a sub.

There is a common belief that using a single subwoofer is sufficient since the human ear cannot detect directionality below 120 Hz. The general consensus is to position the sub in the optimal spot in the room for better bass extension, as explained above -but this couldn’t be more wrong.

The problem with subwoofers isn’t directionality; it’s phase differences and, more importantly, time delays caused by the physical distance between the sub and the main speakers. The only proper way to use a sub is by using two of them, placed either under or beside the speakers. This approach helps minimize phase issues and time delay, effectively integrating the bass drivers into the speaker system.

I have never heard a single subwoofer seamlessly integrated with speakers.

 

[Amir]

You can never achieve a good result with a sub.

There is a common belief that using a single subwoofer is sufficient since the human ear cannot detect directionality below 120 Hz. The general consensus is to position the sub in the optimal spot in the room for better bass extension, as explained above -but this couldn’t be more wrong.

The problem with subwoofers isn’t directionality; it’s phase differences and, more importantly, time delays caused by the physical distance between the sub and the main speakers. The only proper way to use a sub is by using two of them, placed either under or beside the speakers. This approach helps minimize phase issues and time delay, effectively integrating the bass drivers into the speaker system.

I have never heard a single subwoofer seamlessly integrated with speakers.

There are 6 sealedbox subwoofers in Gobel showroom

 

[exupgh12]

You can never achieve a good result with a sub.

There is a common belief that using a single subwoofer is sufficient since the human ear cannot detect directionality below 120 Hz. The general consensus is to position the sub in the optimal spot in the room for better bass extension, as explained above -but this couldn’t be more wrong.

The problem with subwoofers isn’t directionality; it’s phase differences and, more importantly, time delays caused by the physical distance between the sub and the main speakers. The only proper way to use a sub is by using two of them, placed either under or beside the speakers. This approach helps minimize phase issues and time delay, effectively integrating the bass drivers into the speaker system.

I have never heard a single subwoofer seamlessly integrated with speakers.

You can use Trinnov (or other companies advanced RC) to achieves excellent sound with a single subwoofer by using advanced room correction, phase alignment, and time delay compensation. Through its Acoustic Room Calibration, Trinnov measures the room's acoustic characteristics and adjusts the subwoofer’s output to create a flat frequency response. The system then corrects phase differences and time delays to ensure that sound from the subwoofer and main speakers reaches the listener in perfect sync, preventing destructive interference and ensuring seamless integration. Advanced DSP algorithms further optimize the subwoofer’s performance, delivering accurate and coherent bass.

 

[Elliot G.]

You can never achieve a good result with a sub.

There is a common belief that using a single subwoofer is sufficient since the human ear cannot detect directionality below 120 Hz. The general consensus is to position the sub in the optimal spot in the room for better bass extension, as explained above -but this couldn’t be more wrong.

The problem with subwoofers isn’t directionality; it’s phase differences and, more importantly, time delays caused by the physical distance between the sub and the main speakers. The only proper way to use a sub is by using two of them, placed either under or beside the speakers. This approach helps minimize phase issues and time delay, effectively integrating the bass drivers into the speaker system.

I have never heard a single subwoofer seamlessly integrated with speakers.

I think you should have two subs as well

 

[mtemur]

I think you should have two subs as well

Goebel used to use two subs and place them right next to the speakers back then (2010).



I liked those proprietary panel speakers but Goebel chose a different way.

 

[Elliot G.]

Goebel used to use two subs and place them right next to the speakers back then (2010).

View attachment 144912

I liked those proprietary panel speakers but Goebel chose a different way.

That’s a very old picture. I’ve never seen that before . That must be a prototype of the Epoque speakers

 

[Oliver Göbel]

You can never achieve a good result with a sub.

There is a common belief that using a single subwoofer is sufficient since the human ear cannot detect directionality below 120 Hz. The general consensus is to position the sub in the optimal spot in the room for better bass extension, as explained above -but this couldn’t be more wrong.

The problem with subwoofers isn’t directionality; it’s phase differences and, more importantly, time delays caused by the physical distance between the sub and the main speakers. The only proper way to use a sub is by using two of them, placed either under or beside the speakers. This approach helps minimize phase issues and time delay, effectively integrating the bass drivers into the speaker system.

I have never heard a single subwoofer seamlessly integrated with speakers.

We also always suggest to use minimum 2 subwoofers. Even that we cross over very deep (around 40 Hz).
But of course you also have to take into account the crossover slope.
You mentioned an important point, regarding the phase and time delay, which also varies on the main loudspeaker and the subwoofer by itself. And do not forget the room, because in this deep frequency areas we are talking about wave lengths way bigger than the raw dimensions of the listening rooms!
In order to be able to perfectly adapt the subwoofers to the main loudspeakers, we have integrated in our Divin Sovereign subwoofer controller several tools:
1.) You can choose between 9 different slops and filter functions. 6dB, 12dB Butterworth, 18dB Butterworth, 24dB Butterworth, 12dB Bessel, 18dB Bessel, 24dB Bessel, 12dB Linkwitz, 24dB Linkwitz
2.) You can adjust a delay from 0 to 10710 mm in 1 mm steps.
3.) You can adjust the phase from 0 to 180 degrees in 1 degree steps.
4.) Additionally you can invert the phase.

But someone can write and describe a lot of things. After all hearing is believing!

 

[Elliot G.]

I realize that the Divin Sovereigns Subwoofers are large and costly and certainly they aren't for everyone but I can say that every single person that has purchased them has told me the same thing. This also includes me as I have never been a fan of subs in a system before with the products that have tried. The verdict from all is the result is just perfect integration and they are thrilled with the results. We have not used them of course with every brand of speaker but we have used them with horns, and conventional dynamic drivers with excellent result and satisfied end users.
I can also testify that the set up in Landshut with the Majestics and a Gobel Sovereign six pack is pretty incredible.

 

[marty]

2.) You can adjust a delay from 0 to 10710 mm in 1 mm steps.

Please confirm this specification. 10,710 mm is about 35 ft. This seems improbable. Delays are often specified in units of time, not length. Did Oliver mean msec, not mm? Even so, 10710 msec is about 10,7 seconds which seems an unlikely time delay for a subwoofer. My guess is that microseconds was the intended specification. Please verify.