Why CDs May Actually Sound Better Than Vinyl

What is your preferred format for listening to audio

  • I have only digital in my system and prefer digital

    Votes: 17 26.2%
  • I have only vinyl in my system and prefer vinyl

    Votes: 4 6.2%
  • I have both digital and vinyl in my system. I prefer digital

    Votes: 10 15.4%
  • I have both digital and vinyl in my system. I prefer vinyl

    Votes: 17 26.2%
  • I have both digital and vinyl in my system. I like both

    Votes: 11 16.9%
  • I have only digital in my system but also like vinyl

    Votes: 6 9.2%
  • I have only vinyl in my system but also like digital

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    65
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Is it therefore possible that microphone techniques currently in use are (often) more suited to analogue recording than digital recording? I've asked before here about the ubiquity of close-micing for exactly this reason, but is there any logic in that? Are the well-understood limitations of analogue offsetting the problems associated with close-micing?

The answer is a four letter word.....Cost. That's it really. When multitrack became possible, so did flexibility in scheduling (both rehearsal and studio time and space) and thus production costs went down. The off shoot was the birth of effects to make the mic feed sound more natural (distant with room reverberation). Nobody listens to a snare from inches away anyway right? Not even the drummer but that's a whole 'nuther story. :)
 
Hi guys, after a period away from Whats Best, partly thru necessity (moving house/no computer), and partly choice (frustration w/the ongoing passive aggressive soapboxes), I've come back to one of the best threads yet, mercifully absent of brow beating. I've spent my whole audiophile life convinced of the superiority of analog over digital. Even in the mid 00's when my Emm Labs CDSA SE cdp proved to be more impressive than my Michell Orbe/SME V/Transfiguration Orpheus/Tom Evans Groove, the balance was righted by move to current tt. However my most recent and likely last digital upgrade again tipped the balance twds digital and it's been a real struggle to get lp to sound DECIDEDLY superior. For the first time I'm really getting (and "getting") superlative digital, that I can listen to all day, and not miss lp. Going back to analog from digital in a lot of ways feels like a step down in terms of non linearity, noise, euphonic bloom etc. However tweaking the analog further still IMHO reveals lp playback to be more expressive, and demonstating the least cognitive dissonance. I still melt into lp listening more than digital. But for me it's been a bit of a 180 turnaround to realise that digital is a whole lot more truthful than I gave it credit for over three decades. However analog if not "truthful" than digital, is still by a reasonable margin more "righteous", and every tweak I make to my analog front end produces more benefit than the same to my digital.
The best of analog is still out there, and probably by a vast level. But I've truly lost my anti-digital hat.
 
Hi guys, after a period away from Whats Best, partly thru necessity (moving house/no computer), and partly choice (frustration w/the ongoing passive aggressive soapboxes), I've come back to one of the best threads yet, mercifully absent of brow beating. I've spent my whole audiophile life convinced of the superiority of analog over digital. Even in the mid 00's when my Emm labds CDSA SE proved to be more impressive than my Michell orbe/SME V/Transfiguration Orpheus/Tom Evans Groove, the balance was righted by move to current tt. However my most recent and likely last digital upgrade again tipped the balance and it's been a real struggle to get lp to sound DECIDEDLY superior. For the first time I'm really getting and "getting" superlative digital, that i can listen to all day. Going back to analog in a lot of ways feels like a step down in terms of non linearity, noise, euphonic bloom etc. However tweaking the analog further still IMHO reveals lp playback to be more expressive, and demonstarting the least cognitive dissonance. i still melt into lp listening more than digital. But for me it's been a bit of a 180 turnaround to realise that digital is a whole lot more truthful than I gave it credit for for 15 yrs. However analog if not "truthful' is still by a reasonable marginn more 'righteous", and every tweak i make to my analog front end produces more benefit than the same to my digital.
The best of analog is still out there, and probably by a vast level.

That was a very nice synopsis of your analog and digital journey. Welcome back!
 
OK, back from a nice trip with the grandchildren.
Firstly the microphone feed sounds like the sound at the microphone position. People listen to classical music much further away from the orchestra than even the simple old microphone techniques using a crosser pair ORTF pair Decca tree and so forth. Nowadays multiple microphones are recorded and mixed down to stereo later but tend to be mounted far closer to the instruments than any concertgoer's ears ever would be.
Recording engineers manipulate the resulting channels and mix to stereo.
I prefer the older methods using only 2 microphones, personally, which is worse for noise but better for everything else IMHO.
Back in the day a pair of sensitive microphones above and behind the conductor's head produced a microphone output far closer to that a concert goer would hear but still a front of stalls balance.

When I first started recording seriously I was surprised that the standard alignment for a tape recorder was done at -20 dB and decided I would use 0dB because the signal is not often at -20dB and often peaking at +7 dB. I learned a lot then. There was no way the recorder could achieve a level frequency response at 0dB. In fact analogue recorders I have used all roll off the high frequencies at levels above -20 dB.
So does sitting further from the orchestra than the recording microphones...
I have only heard of one reel to reel recorder which has even frequency response in the bass.

There is a lot of experience needed to cut an LP, involving certain manipulations of the original recording, which change the sound.
Firstly the bass must be mono to ensure a continuous groove if the level goes high. This is of benefit on playback since both speakers and amps are handling the bass.
Secondly the LP medium does not have a high signal to noise potential so the low level sounds are almost always amplified relative to the average level to make sure the quiet parts of the music don't descend too close to the LP noise. This has the beneficial effect on playback of the hall ambience being more audible relative to the average level.
The maximum level which can be cut in the top octave is less than that at medium frequencies due to cutter limitations.

So overall there is no way an LP is likely to sound like the microphone feed.

I have not written that the LP is "grossly coloured" but it is coloured in ways that are nice, euphonic and maybe/probably in a way which is similar to the sound change one gets by being quite a long way from the orchestra in a concert.
Whilst it is true that quite a lot of people prefer the sound of LPs, I would be surprised if it is a majority of music lovers even if there is a hard core of audiophile enthusiasts who feel that way.

If that sounds more real to some people that is fine and dandy.

It is, IMHO, fortunate happenstance though, not any inherent superiority of LPs, the shortcomings of which, as I wrote before, sound nice and have been known about and fully explained for decades.
In fact the flat disc was invented to make music cheaper to distribute than tape, not for sound quality and the original analogue or digital recording is of much higher accuracy than the LP cut from it.

Thanks for an informative read .
 
Despite my 180 on digital, there are things about digital playback that always make themselves apparent, which tend to prick the bubble of believability. I've never yet heard snare drum sound good on digital. I'm a drummer, and I know what a whole host of snare drums sound like, and never does digital get close. Analog can be poor too, but often gets it right. But from the Golden Age of drummers, Buddy Rich thru Tony Williams, to John Bonham and Neil Peart, etc etc, digital never nails snare drum. I'm of the opinion this may be more to do with mastering than the medium itself, but the bubble of sound that analog encapsulates seems to be so much more "right" on stuff like drums, that even if digital is more "correct", I'll end up not preferring it.
 
By "sound" in 1) I meant our subjective perception of it.

For those focused on 2) isn't subjectively pleasant or unpleasant not relevant to them? I would think the goal of the devotees of 2) would be to try to achieve the goal of 2) and let the pleasant or unpleasant "chips" fall where they may.

I wonder if those focused on #2 would try to first rely on measurements to see if the copy is are measurably identical to the original, and then to verify those findings by listening. I have read accounts of people writing that the latest DSD DACs are audibly indistinguishable from the original. Over on Amir's new audio site, measurements seem to be the method by which adherents determine accuracy often, but not always, confirmed by listening.

I agree that whether or not the end result is pleasant to the listener seems secondary. I would add that even whether or not the result sounds real is less important. Faithfulness or accuracy to the recording is paramount.
 
Despite my 180 on digital, there are things about digital playback that always make themselves apparent, which tend to prick the bubble of believability. I've never yet heard snare drum sound good on digital. I'm a drummer, and I know what a whole host of snare drums sound like, and never does digital get close. Analog can be poor too, but often gets it right. But from the Golden Age of drummers, Buddy Rich thru Tony Williams, to John Bonham and Neil Peart, etc etc, digital never nails snare drum. I'm of the opinion this may be more to do with mastering than the medium itself, but the bubble of sound that analog encapsulates seems to be so much more "right" on stuff like drums, that even if digital is more "correct", I'll end up not preferring it.

Well, in general, I would have once agreed with you, but now I suggest otherwise.

1 common example: Trinity Sessions, Cowboy Junkies, Sweet Jane, originally a 16bit DAT recording. Comparing all my different pressings/rips all formats, only the original CD does the snares justice(*). Other pressings, either CD or LP, rips, not so much ...

(*)IME, live instruments, esp percussive, only sound live when live.

(Get On Up; Mr. James Brown considers every instrument a drum)
 
Very nice posting, F1eng, I find what you say corresponds to my experiences recording a jazz band. It also suggests that those just love vinyl really don't like closer to real sound. I like vinyl and well remember hearing master tapes versus vinyl and thinking they sounded quite different.
 
OK, back from a nice trip with the grandchildren.
Firstly the microphone feed sounds like the sound at the microphone position. People listen to classical music much further away from the orchestra than even the simple old microphone techniques using a crosser pair ORTF pair Decca tree and so forth. Nowadays multiple microphones are recorded and mixed down to stereo later but tend to be mounted far closer to the instruments than any concertgoer's ears ever would be.
Recording engineers manipulate the resulting channels and mix to stereo.
I prefer the older methods using only 2 microphones, personally, which is worse for noise but better for everything else IMHO.
Back in the day a pair of sensitive microphones above and behind the conductor's head produced a microphone output far closer to that a concert goer would hear but still a front of stalls balance.

When I first started recording seriously I was surprised that the standard alignment for a tape recorder was done at -20 dB and decided I would use 0dB because the signal is not often at -20dB and often peaking at +7 dB. I learned a lot then. There was no way the recorder could achieve a level frequency response at 0dB. In fact analogue recorders I have used all roll off the high frequencies at levels above -20 dB.
So does sitting further from the orchestra than the recording microphones...
I have only heard of one reel to reel recorder which has even frequency response in the bass.

There is a lot of experience needed to cut an LP, involving certain manipulations of the original recording, which change the sound.
Firstly the bass must be mono to ensure a continuous groove if the level goes high. This is of benefit on playback since both speakers and amps are handling the bass.
Secondly the LP medium does not have a high signal to noise potential so the low level sounds are almost always amplified relative to the average level to make sure the quiet parts of the music don't descend too close to the LP noise. This has the beneficial effect on playback of the hall ambience being more audible relative to the average level.
The maximum level which can be cut in the top octave is less than that at medium frequencies due to cutter limitations.

So overall there is no way an LP is likely to sound like the microphone feed.

I have not written that the LP is "grossly coloured" but it is coloured in ways that are nice, euphonic and maybe/probably in a way which is similar to the sound change one gets by being quite a long way from the orchestra in a concert.
Whilst it is true that quite a lot of people prefer the sound of LPs, I would be surprised if it is a majority of music lovers even if there is a hard core of audiophile enthusiasts who feel that way.

If that sounds more real to some people that is fine and dandy.

It is, IMHO, fortunate happenstance though, not any inherent superiority of LPs, the shortcomings of which, as I wrote before, sound nice and have been known about and fully explained for decades.
In fact the flat disc was invented to make music cheaper to distribute than tape, not for sound quality and the original analogue or digital recording is of much higher accuracy than the LP cut from it.

Thank you f1eng for this long and detailed response to my set of questions. Just the other night I went to the BSO and sat further back than I usually do. I am usually in the 7th row, center aisle. The other night I was back in the 22nd row, center aisle. I much prefer the closer seats for the immediacy, higher degree of detail, and the more distinct sound of the individual instruments. Interestingly, the type of music that I like to listen to, namely smaller scale chamber classical such as string quartets and violin, cello and piano concertos, sound more like the analog recordings I have of those from my 7th row seats than they do from the 22nd row. The perspective was too distant for my taste and not what I hear in my LP collection.

Perhaps this impression is chiefly because of the closer micing of my particular recordings. I have long felt that I, and others who listen to a lot of live acoustic music, tailor our individual systems to sound most like what we hear when we hear live music, and that includes the listener perspective relative to the performance. To mention just one example, a recording of a Heifetz violin concerto sounds much more like what I hear in row 7 than it does in row 22, I presume because of the mic location.

I can see how the mic position, and I suppose the mic type, can indeed play the major role in this.

The difference between one example of analog and digital was again made clear to me the other day when comparing the much mentioned Janaki String Trio. It is a very close mic'd recording. The spacial information, hall sound and incredible resolution responsible for subjectively very accurate timbre and dynamics were much more evident on the LP than they were on a quad DSD digital file through the same system. So I wonder if this perception is due to the mic and its position which was used in the recording or something else like the mastering adjustments made for the vinyl process. Assuming the mic picked up all of that information which was heard on the LP, somewhere along the chain of the digital replay, it was lost, softened, and made to sound less real. Of course, I was not at the recording session, so perhaps, alternatively, what I think sounds real about those string instruments was actually an exaggeration, heightening and manipulation of the signal. What is certain, though, is that they did indeed sound very different from each other.
 
T Bone, more and more I'm thinking mastering is the key, not the medium. But I remain of the opinion that very few if any examples of recordings from the Golden Age when it comes to drums sound better on cd than the vinyl counterparts. Obv, a lot of this is the fact that analog was pre eminent and engineers mastered according to the rules of the day. CD remastering has only led to esp drums sounding poorer from this era. IMHO/YMMV etc. But this is not watertight - on a recent listening session, I listened to some Ella who was spookily in the room. Not off vinyl or dsd, but Plain Jane RBCD. Mastering, not the medium.
 
Hi guys, after a period away from Whats Best, partly thru necessity (moving house/no computer), and partly choice (frustration w/the ongoing passive aggressive soapboxes), I've come back to one of the best threads yet, mercifully absent of brow beating. I've spent my whole audiophile life convinced of the superiority of analog over digital. Even in the mid 00's when my Emm Labs CDSA SE cdp proved to be more impressive than my Michell Orbe/SME V/Transfiguration Orpheus/Tom Evans Groove, the balance was righted by move to current tt. However my most recent and likely last digital upgrade again tipped the balance twds digital and it's been a real struggle to get lp to sound DECIDEDLY superior. For the first time I'm really getting (and "getting") superlative digital, that I can listen to all day, and not miss lp. Going back to analog from digital in a lot of ways feels like a step down in terms of non linearity, noise, euphonic bloom etc. However tweaking the analog further still IMHO reveals lp playback to be more expressive, and demonstating the least cognitive dissonance. I still melt into lp listening more than digital. But for me it's been a bit of a 180 turnaround to realise that digital is a whole lot more truthful than I gave it credit for over three decades. However analog if not "truthful" than digital, is still by a reasonable margin more "righteous", and every tweak I make to my analog front end produces more benefit than the same to my digital.
The best of analog is still out there, and probably by a vast level. But I've truly lost my anti-digital hat.

Welcome back spiritfomusic. As a result of my recent digital auditions with Al M., I, too, have lost my "anti-digital hat." I have heard excellent digital, and it has indeed come a very long way.
 
I'm certainly getting tired of the notion (not too prevalent here, admittedly) that if I prefer digital I'm either deaf or deluded. I feel like I'm not a "proper" audiophile because I don't have a TT...

Why? I don't have a TT either and have stated the reasons why I will never have one. Am I not a "proper" audiophile? If someone were to claim that based on this I would call them an idiot. Fortunately, I don't have to worry about that around here.

On the other hand, I have been attacked here for not being a "proper" audiophile because I am too satisfied with my gear, causing me not to change it with sufficient frequency to qualify. Do I care about such irrelevant opinions? Not really.
 
On the other hand, I have been attacked here for not being a "proper" audiophile because I am too satisfied with my gear, causing me not to change it with sufficient frequency to qualify. Do I care about such irrelevant opinions? Not really.

They are just jealous and won't admit it. That's nuts you don't fix what isn't broken. There is nothing wrong with being happy with your gear.

Rob:)
 
Hi guys, after a period away from Whats Best, partly thru necessity (moving house/no computer), and partly choice (frustration w/the ongoing passive aggressive soapboxes), I've come back to one of the best threads yet, mercifully absent of brow beating. I've spent my whole audiophile life convinced of the superiority of analog over digital. Even in the mid 00's when my Emm Labs CDSA SE cdp proved to be more impressive than my Michell Orbe/SME V/Transfiguration Orpheus/Tom Evans Groove, the balance was righted by move to current tt. However my most recent and likely last digital upgrade again tipped the balance twds digital and it's been a real struggle to get lp to sound DECIDEDLY superior. For the first time I'm really getting (and "getting") superlative digital, that I can listen to all day, and not miss lp. Going back to analog from digital in a lot of ways feels like a step down in terms of non linearity, noise, euphonic bloom etc. However tweaking the analog further still IMHO reveals lp playback to be more expressive, and demonstating the least cognitive dissonance. I still melt into lp listening more than digital. But for me it's been a bit of a 180 turnaround to realise that digital is a whole lot more truthful than I gave it credit for over three decades. However analog if not "truthful" than digital, is still by a reasonable margin more "righteous", and every tweak I make to my analog front end produces more benefit than the same to my digital.
The best of analog is still out there, and probably by a vast level. But I've truly lost my anti-digital hat.

Welcome back!
 
Why? I don't have a TT either and have stated the reasons why I will never have one. Am I not a "proper" audiophile? If someone were to claim that based on this I would call them an idiot. Fortunately, I don't have to worry about that around here.

On the other hand, I have been attacked here for not being a "proper" audiophile because I am too satisfied with my gear, causing me not to change it with sufficient frequency to qualify. Do I care about such irrelevant opinions? Not really.

Too funny. I know exactly what you mean, Al. Perhaps you are more of a music lover, than a gear lover. Though I know how you lust after a Rossini deck and the Magico Q1 speakers based on that incredible audition. It has been a while since I've had the upgrade bug.
 
Good to see you back, spirit. Interesting thoughts all round.

Al, an audiophile without a TT, who listens to actual music without constantly thinking about the gear and its deficiencies? Sounds like nirvana!
 
T Bone, more and more I'm thinking mastering is the key, not the medium. But I remain of the opinion that very few if any examples of recordings from the Golden Age when it comes to drums sound better on cd than the vinyl counterparts. Obv, a lot of this is the fact that analog was pre eminent and engineers mastered according to the rules of the day. CD remastering has only led to esp drums sounding poorer from this era. IMHO/YMMV etc. But this is not watertight - on a recent listening session, I listened to some Ella who was spookily in the room. Not off vinyl or dsd, but Plain Jane RBCD. Mastering, not the medium.

Agreed, mastering trumps format every time ... and many anti-CD folk may be quite surprised how uncompressed certain older orig "flat" CDs transfers/pressings sound compared to the majority of subsequent remasters (any format) ... example; the aforementioned Abbey Road CD, while everything sounds wider/bigger and much more realistic, Ringo's percussion especially benefits ... the remasters make his playing/skill/kit sound terribly muffled.

As a vinyl first 'phile, I once didn't much like/appreciate RBCD, esp in direct comparison to my turntable, and rightly so considering the circumstances ... I'd even have once agreed it contained inherited glare/artifacts. But, that was well over a decade ago ...
 
Too funny. I know exactly what you mean, Al. Perhaps you are more of a music lover, than a gear lover. Though I know how you lust after a Rossini deck and the Magico Q1 speakers based on that incredible audition. It has been a while since I've had the upgrade bug.

Yes, that was quite an audition, wasn't it? I lust after the dCS Rossini in particular, indeed. Yet since at the moment I cannot afford it I am concentrating again on what my system does well, and that is a whole lot. In fact, often I cannot believe how good it sounds. I am totally addicted to it, and often cannot wait to turn it on again. I know it can be better, but right now I am excited again about what I already have.

And I am listening to a lot of music indeed. Currently I am on a Stravinsky binge, and I'm loving it. I never liked that composer that much, except perhaps the Rite of Spring and his late serial stuff, but now I am into his music. I had thought his neo-classical Symphony in C was really bad, but no, it is really excellent! Fascinating music.
 
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